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  1. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/26/2008 12:26pm


     Style: ti da shuai na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Grips: tai otoshi/harai goshi v. shuai jiao zhi bie v. sambo front trip (?)

    Judo tai otoshi:

    YouTube - Mike Swain: Tai Otoshi

    Judo harai goshi:

    YouTube - Mike Swain: Harai Goshi

    Zhi bie from shuai jiao (which is, I think, somewhere between tai otoshi and harai goshi):

    YouTube - Beijing Style Shuaijiao/Wrestling
    (embedding forbidden, please click the link)

    I'm sure there's an equivalent throw with a Russian name in Sambo, but I can't seem to find a good video example. If one of you can name it and give an example, I'd appreciate it.

    In shuai jiao, I was taught to grab the left triceps with my left hand & left collar with my right hand (assuming right foot forward stance), then use the right elbow to press the other guy's head to my left while pulling down his right arm (see video). In Judo and BJJ, I was taught to grip the right lapel with the right hand and sort of "uppercut" the right hand toward the ceiling for tai otoshi, and to circle the head with my right arm for harai goshi.

    Obviously, we take what we can get, and these throws can go many ways -- sometimes more trip, sometimes more hip -- but I'm curious as to the reasoning behind the choice of ideal (best case?) grips between these different versions. Can any of you judo and sambo guys shed some light?

    Thanks in advance, and I hope this question is specific enough to belong in this forum.
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
  2. 1point2 is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/26/2008 12:44pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 剛 and 柔

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    The way I learned judo-style tai otoshi: my right hand grabs their left lapel, and stays low and elbow in, pressing with the whole forearm against their trunk, from ribs to armpit, or from armpit across the pectoral muscle. This gives the lateral, to-opponent's-right pressure which allows the twisting/dropping action to take effect.

    My favorite representative tai-otoshi:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_F6wmpPzUA
    He's doing it lefty, but his pressing elbow is distinctly down, though his grip is on the high end of what I describe.

    As for harai goshi, I learned nage-no-kata version with the right hand under the armpit, gripping the gi at the shoulderblade. I like this a lot, but am not proficient with it so I'll let it stand at that. Not yet processed:
    YouTube - Harai goshi (Nage-No-Kata)
  3. cuatro76 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/26/2008 1:01pm


     Style: Judo, BJJ

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    Tai Otoshi is a hand throw. that's why Swain was emphasizing the wrist snap over the leg position to throw. From a normal righty grip, I like to shove my right elbow into uke's left arm pit as I snap my hands. It feels like my upper body is snapping and pushing while my hips torque and drop, first breaking uke's balance over his right pinky toe then finishing the throw more to his front.

    The Harai and Zhi bie are essentially the same, just different grips for different jackets. The chinese guys have sleevless jackets so they grip one way, Judoka have sleeves... Your size/build will also determine how you grip your opponent. If your tall you probably want to grip the horizontal seam along the back of the judogi and break your uke down. if your shorter, you might want to get an underhook or just grip the lapel.
  4. Sophist is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/26/2008 1:21pm


     Style: Judo, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The "zhi bie" throw made me think of ashi guruma more than harai goshi.

    YouTube - Judo: Ashi guruma: Leg wheel
  5. theotherserge is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/26/2008 1:24pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: sambo/crossfit

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    sweet thread!

    (I'm away from my home comp. so no vids from me yet)

    Podxvat is the Sambo equivalent. Our coach was never that concerned with exactly what grip you had, you threw -tried to throw- with what you had.

    The Shuai-Jao stuff always "looks" more Sambo-like to me. We have these epaulettes on our jackets and you can substitute that for the short-sleeve grip with your left hand. The close gripping makes it a tighter throwing action, as opposed to the looser jacket=more grip+arm movement.

    We'd call both Harai-goshi and Uchimata Podxvat, adding "one leg or two legs" as the fit-in and loading are basically the same.

    Tai-Otoshi, far as I know is the same for sambo as its adapted directly from sambo. There's a Russian name but I've been told by a few different sources "Nobody uses that name."

    Now there is a sambo throw called Podnoshka/Podnoshkva... and it is similar to Tai except that its less of a "corner throw" and more a direct trip. Unlike the toe-down&heel up lunge posture you end with in Tai, you turn your foot flat so both of you face the same direction and you're in a sideways lunge with your knee slightly bent, at the last moment you pop your knee straight and that gives a very effective bump to finalize the throw. I'd call it a playground trip cause its kind of like the crap you pull when lined up for a fire drill.

    As far as ideal, nothing is ideal unless you get to fight a _hunner NHB-rules ;-) But again, Alex would teach us to fight from any and all grips, and no grips=underhooks, headwraps, leg vines. Every situation is different.

    If you're thinking of crossover to no-gi, then you want the tighter throws. Tai-Otoshi is arugably not possible as you don't have a lapel to push upwards. I also think it is a beautiful throw and we've done a no-gi variant where you push up on uki's chin as a substitute for lapel, thing is it really sucks for your partner! But it is a badass RBSD adaption especially if you crush their throat as you throw them.

    If you were completly badass, perhaps you could do a haygut uppercut as the push?
  6. 1point2 is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/26/2008 1:27pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 剛 and 柔

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    I was going to write a diatribe about how zhie bie can't be 1/2 tai-otoshi since tai-otoshi is a hand throw based on dropping instead of tripping or hip contact, but I think I get it now. It's tai otoshi kuzushi and upper body twisting, but a leg sweep down below (and, significantly, it's a sweep below the knee, not above as in harai-goshi).

    It's a categorization issue I think. The Japanese categorize hand/hip/leg throws separately, but zhie bie seems to cross the boundaries of all three: tai otoshi hands, harai goshi hips, and a leg sweep. The harai goshi hip-loading is not emphasized because of the cross-body grip, which doesn't have the lifting power of the gi-underhook that nage-no-kata has.
  7. theotherserge is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/26/2008 1:45pm

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     Style: sambo/crossfit

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was taught to "match" attacking leg to the defending leg: hip-thigh-calf-foot. There is a slight load in the Podvaxt throw, similar to O-goshi(?) where you press one side of your hip in.

    So Ashi-Guruma would be it if you missed the loading, or uki is just too heavy for you to control. The twisting actions are very similar.

    Judo-guys, is Uki-Otoshi where you basically do a Tai-Otoshi to the back corner? Goddamn Kodokan book has such bad pictures the IDK what's what.
  8. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/26/2008 1:47pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jackrusher
    In shuai jiao, I was taught to grab the left triceps with my left hand & left collar with my right hand (assuming right foot forward stance), then use the right elbow to press the other guy's head to my left while pulling down his right arm (see video). In Judo and BJJ, I was taught to grip the right lapel with the right hand and sort of "uppercut" the right hand toward the ceiling for tai otoshi, and to circle the head with my right arm for harai goshi.

    You are actually touching upon a detail which causes a difference between a "Tractor Pull" and an "Elevator".

    It's about the Kuzushi, and the preference for which type: whip around, or up and over.

    Also, as far as a cross collar grip, gripping rules make it more more difficult in Judo to maintain that grip long enough to start the unbalancing act.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
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  9. cuatro76 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/26/2008 2:51pm


     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Other Other Serge
    Judo-guys, is Uki-Otoshi where you basically do a Tai-Otoshi to the back corner? Goddamn Kodokan book has such bad pictures the IDK what's what.
    Sumi otoshi is the throw to the back corner you're thinking of. Uki otoshi is still a forward throw.

    http://www.judoinfo.com/images/anima...sumiotoshi.htm
  10. theotherserge is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/26/2008 3:11pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: sambo/crossfit

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thank you cuatro!
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