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  1. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/02/2008 2:09pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by fug
    Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who consume meat, cheese, eggs and milk daily vs sparingly or not at all: 3.6 X's

    Contamination of breast milk, due to chlorinated hydrocarbon pesticides in animal products, found in meat-eating mothers vs non-meat eating mothers: 35 times higher
    Mortality comparison (with appropriate statistical controls) on #1 and absolute measurements on #2, please.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  2. patfromlogan is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/02/2008 5:15pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
    ^^^ Are those statements, paragraphs, quotes? What exactly? Sources?

    Not that I'm questioning the veracity of it, but for ****'s fucking sake man, this thread is so fucking long, and all of you guys have been here in this website and forum for fucking long enough to know better that this forum is not freaking AOL teen chat service.
    PDOMA? BBIAB...
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  3. patfromlogan is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/02/2008 5:35pm

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    Key, Timothy J, et al., 1999 "Mortality in vegetarians and nonvegetarians: detailed findings from a collaborative analysis of 5 prospective studies" American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 70, No. 3, 516S-524S, September 1999 http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/70/3/516S

    Abstract: We combined data from 5 prospective studies to compare the death rates from common diseases of vegetarians with those of nonvegetarians with similar lifestyles. A summary of these results was reported previously; we report here more details of the findings. Data for 76172 men and women were available. Vegetarians were those who did not eat any meat or fish (n = 27808). Death rate ratios at ages 16–89 y were calculated by Poisson regression and all results were adjusted for age, sex, and smoking status. A random-effects model was used to calculate pooled estimates of effect for all studies combined. There were 8330 deaths after a mean of 10.6 y of follow-up. Mortality from ischemic heart disease was 24% lower in vegetarians than in nonvegetarians (death rate ratio: 0.76; 95% CI: 0.62, 0.94; P < 0.01). The lower mortality from ischemic heart disease among vegetarians was greater at younger ages and was restricted to those who had followed their current diet for >5 y. Further categorization of diets showed that, in comparison with regular meat eaters, mortality from ischemic heart disease was 20% lower in occasional meat eaters, 34% lower in people who ate fish but not meat, 34% lower in lactoovovegetarians, and 26% lower in vegans. There were no significant differences between vegetarians and nonvegetarians in mortality from cerebrovascular disease, stomach cancer, colorectal cancer, lung cancer, breast cancer, prostate cancer, or all other causes combined. "

    Hmmm, the first thing I looked at was not backed up. It is interesting that fish and lacto eaters scored better than vegans.

    mo' stuff for those who can understand it: http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/78/3/533S
    Last edited by patfromlogan; 12/02/2008 5:41pm at .
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  4. EmetShamash is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/02/2008 6:46pm


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    http://www.barnivore.com/

    Your online drink directory

    Is your booze vegan?

    It might seem weird at first, but your favourite drink might have more than just alcohol in it.

    Brewmasters, winemakers, and distillers may include animal ingredients in their products directly, or they might use them in the processing and filtration.

    These ingredients don't usually show up on the label, so the only way to find out is to ask.

    The Barnivore Vegan Alcohol Directory is here to help.

    Our 507 entries have been checked and double checked by the Barnivore community and are gathered here for you to enjoy, and maybe submit a check of your own.

  5. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/02/2008 6:46pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by fug
    Key, Timothy J, et al., 1999 "Mortality in vegetarians and nonvegetarians: detailed findings from a collaborative analysis of 5 prospective studies" American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 70, No. 3, 516S-524S, September 1999 http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/70/3/516S
    I apologize - I should have been more clear. Cause of death is great and all, but by "mortality comparison" (a term I may have misused or made up entirely) I meant an analysis in terms of life expectancy. One could also quite reasonably make an argument on the basis of quality of life (however quantified).

    My problem with cause-of-death studies without a corresponding life expectancy trend is detailed here.

    For the record, I'm not necessarily disputing the implication that a vegetarian diet is statistically likely to result in a longer life (although I'd expect that correlation to diminish when appropriate controls are introduced), but you need to be more careful in terms of what evidence you introduce to make that argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  6. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/02/2008 9:26pm


     Style: ti da shuai na

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    Quote Originally Posted by fug
    Key, Timothy J, et al., 1999 "Mortality in vegetarians and nonvegetarians: detailed findings from a collaborative analysis of 5 prospective studies" American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 70, No. 3, 516S-524S, September 1999 http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/70/3/516S
    The data is dirty, missing info for key confounding areas in each data source, but they do mention that:

    ... in all studies the proportion of smokers was lower among the vegetarians than the nonvegetarians. In all studies for which data were available, vegetarians had a lower mean body mass index, a lower percentage of vegetarians were current alcohol users, and a consistently higher percentage of vegetarians were high exercisers.
    Wow. I'm shocked to learn that fat, sedentary, alcohol-drinking smokers who eat meat are statistically more likely to die via ischemic heart disease than lean, exercising, non-smoking teetotalers who don't.
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
  7. Snake Plissken is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/02/2008 9:35pm

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    Bear in mind, when using Cause of Death studies realize this:

    what they die from isn't always what kills them, just what the doctor decides to list on the Certificate of Death.

    What I mean is: some doctors go by memory, some by what their nurse tells them, some by charts and some by, well...I really am not sure. They are not all equal.
  8. Skillful is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2008 9:53pm


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    Snake,

    Wouldn't sufficient sample size correct for that, assuming the vegans and non-vegans are using the same assortment of doctors in the same proportion?
  9. Snake Plissken is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/02/2008 9:58pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skillful
    Snake,

    Wouldn't sufficient sample size correct for that, assuming the vegans and non-vegans are using the same assortment of doctors in the same proportion?
    If this were the only tasks the doctors had to perform? Possibly. If the doctors were instructed in what the full explanations should be and what they entail.

    However with the numerous other things vying for their attention, really, listing what a person has died from, short of saving them from malpractice, is the least of their concerns.

    Which is why some manner of "CAD and/or COPD" is listed on the majority of Certificates of Death.

    Because to some degree we all have them and can be found in any of us, in varying stages, in a post-mortem investigation.
  10. Skillful is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2008 10:21pm


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    Right, but wouldn't this apply equally to all of the study's population, regardless of their diets?
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