When I Get Back
Posted On:11/13/2008 6:35pm
Fried chicken, good Colonel.
Wouldn't want any of the ***** broiled chicken find its way onto your plate.
Posted On:11/13/2008 6:50pm
Style: creonte on hiatus
Originally Posted by EmetShamash
I have yet to hear a good explanation as to why humans have flattened nails, short canines, and can't eat raw meat other than a vegan diet.
1. on flattened nails:
These bad boys have flattened nails and yet...
Also, boars and baboons don't have claws, and yet they hunt and kill.
2. on short canines:
Deers have been known to kill and eat chicks and voles. They don't have canines.
No single species in the Homo genus has ever had large canines, and yet, there is no discussion that they evolved (we evolved) as carnivores and scavengers.
3. Can't eat raw meat? How the hell did humans managed to eat meat before they learned to control fire? Why where they rasping carcasses with their hand axes then? To make souvenirs?
It is not even needed to successfully digest the food you take. If it were, most herbivores barring the true ruminants would be considered evolutionary failures. For example, hares, rabbits, elephants and guinea pigs eat their own **** pellets because they can't fully digest the plant material they eat in one single pass.
So big deal. We can't fully digest raw meat, and these animals can't fully digest plant material. Big deal, that's just nature. Animals come with solutions that are not perfect, but workable. Being able to eat meat and not fully digest it is no different from eating plant material and being forced to **** it and eat again, or like the ruminants, develop four chambers in the stomach to ferment not the grass, but the vomited grass which has to be re-chewed one more time.
There is a serious lapse of logic here. Your question as of why humans eat meat despite having no claws or canines like, I dunno, smilodon, that was already answered in my long-ass post, but I'll summarize it and add a few more points:
First, having large canines and claws are not a prerequisite to carnivory. They are an adaptation towards an increased degree of carnivory. An adaptation to opportunistic carnivory or scavenging is a precursor to developing canines and/or claws... and only if they are needed.
Second, features evolved only when needed. We humans never needed to develop claws (like most other apes, including meat eating apes like chimps, and savannah primates like baboons and mandrills.) We didn't need claws or canines to eat bone marrow out of carcasses: we used hand axes and stone flakes.
These were our claws and canines:
With those tools around us for the last two million years since we first started gnawing on carcasses, we never had an evolutionary pressure to develop a body plan resembling a saber tooth cat.
Third, large canines are not a necessity to eat meat, not even to kill prey. More often than not, canines evolve for defense. That they can be used for hunting is secondary (becoming an important component only in the most obligate carnivores of the order Carnivora).
Extinct marsupial lions didn't have canines, but large incisors, a different adaptation. Our adaptation towards carnivory and scavenging was tool making.
The need to have claws and large canines, or a perfect digestive system, those are some seriously flawed assumptions on what a carnivore is and how it became to be one. Heck, they are a complete misunderstanding on how evolution works.
For anyone serious to know the history of carnivory in humans (independently of whether you eat meat or not), I suggest you get "Meat Eating & Human Evolution" by Stanford and Bunn.
Last edited by Teh El Macho; 11/13/2008 6:53pm at .
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Posted On:11/13/2008 6:54pm
I'm closing this thread because it's getting ridiculous. Unfortunately we can never discuss how to use a vegetarian diet while being an athlete, so **** it. Thread close.
Posted On:11/13/2008 8:53pm
I changed my mind, I'm re-opening the thread. When I get the chance (if I do), I will move some stuff to the skeptic's forum, while I will retain some other in the PT forums.
After all, this is a PT forum for ****'s sake!!!
Posted On:11/14/2008 10:41am
Style: Chinese Martial Arts
Thank you for actually answering what no one did on an earlier thread. I hesitate to actually get into this bullshit again because it is such a tired argument, but since I am actually talking to people that can answer with good stuff... anyway
Your explanation is good and shows how much of a bad argument I have. I have some issues, and I still don't agree, but it is a good argument.
Baboons and other primates are prime examples of how our diet is what it is. They eat a plant based diet supplemented with small amounts of animal tissue. I wish I knew more about them to make more of an argument here, but really their diets have so little meat in them I don't think that they can compare to the amount of animal products that people think is healthy to eat.
Boars have hooves which are more seen in herbivores, yet they eat a small amount of scavenged crap. They're like pigs, they eat anything. Hardly seasoned hunters.
Deer, which are ruminants like cows with the four chambered stomach and all, are very clearly herbivores that may kill for reasons other than food. Being a true ruminant and being able to digest meat tells you that other herbivores are quite capable of strong dietary flexibility.
You present a good theory about why we have evolved this way. It is a bit of a stretch for me to think that we didn't evolve any carnivory insides or outsides because we make such awesome tools though. If you still think that we are so much like the other primates then why should we eat such a larger amount of animal stuffs?
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Posted On:11/14/2008 11:10am
Style: (Beautiful) Spring Roll
Originally Posted by EmetShamash
...If you still think that we are so much like the other primates then why should we eat such a larger amount of animal stuffs?...
I support TEM's line of culling most of this thread into a separate (probably the millionth) discussion on meat eating or not somewhere else - the OP deserves to have an on-topic discussion here about gaining muscle weight on a vegetarian diet (and also practical advice on how to fight stink-in-gi...)
So the following lines are for the future culled thread:
1./ The amount of animal food consumed by humans depends on continent, country, culture, social sphere, income, etc...
2./ what we eat and what percentual composition our food is, is not in direct relation to the evolution of Homo s. Sapiens. We're not evolved to only consume potato chips and beer, but we have the opportunity to do so.
My Extatosoma (stick insect) would die of hunger, if I'd put a steak instead of bramble leaves into its plastic home. It has no choice of food (several plants the most, some only eat one kind).
We, humans, CAN eat almost anything.
That's the big evolutionary plus.
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Posted On:11/14/2008 11:33am
Style: Judo, BJJ
We can even eat each other! But choose not to, for some reason
Posted On:11/14/2008 11:42am
Style: Hammer Fisting
Tofu gives you moobs. </fact>
Posted On:11/14/2008 12:01pm
No it doesn't. I've been eating it my whole life. Come by my gym and I will allow you to examine my smooth yet elegant nipples.
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Posted On:11/14/2008 12:29pm
Style: Rehab Fu
Tempeh actually has flavor tho, and more balanced nutrition. Tofu is more like a nutritional supplement. It's good for you, and it plugs holes in your diet, but it doesn't bring much else to the party.
Indonesian is one of the few meals I will almost always go veg.
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