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  1. bigpappaferg is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/11/2008 4:22pm

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     Style: Northern Mantis Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by AnnaTrocity
    As a civilian I am unlikely to ever see real "field time" that requires the use of suppressive fire and move tactics. Short of having to take out my whole neighborhood...at least :) Even in a highly unlikely complete breakdown breakdown of society I really doubt anyone is going to have to fire off multiple magazines in rapid succession for an extended period of time.






    Well...I am a gear queer that likes to blow big bucks on the best stuff I can afford rather then just "good enough". I certainly want my rifle to go a thousand rounds or better without needing to be cleaned and am doing what I can to make that want a reality by upgrading internal parts and doing my research ..but there is reality to take into account and I don't feel that the arguable slight reliability edge of the AK-47 trumps....everything that the AR does better.



    Yep...and other guns as backup...actually my girlfriend and I have discussed doing combat shooting courses that include working with a partner and the like.

    But really it's all for fun and so we can kick ass at airsoft.

    If I ever have to kill my entire neighborhood I'd rather do it from several hundred yards away at my leisure with my eotech (which conveniently has a recticle that represents bullet drop up to 600 meters) and my magnifier rather then by stalking through the streets and having close quarters engagement like a soldier with a squad and an actual mission.
    I'm officially glad that I do not live in your neighborhood. :tongue3:

    I was always under the (possibly mistaken) impression that any differences in reliability between the two styles was due more to the fact that the AR-15's tight tolerances made it more susceptible to environmental contamination (sand, mud, etc), not necessarily from residue buildup from continued fire. Of course I may be full of crap., having no personal first hand experience with either one...
  2. Colby is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/11/2008 4:51pm


     Style: Monkey-See-Monkey-Do

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ferg,

    I carried an A2 (M16 before the M4) for a few years (along with the occasional SAW, M-60, SMAW, etc.), and they are reliable as long as you take care of it. Blanks are pretty dirty, and I was crawling around in the dirt for a few days while firing. My weapon was dirtier after blanks than at the range, but the exposure to dirt and crap varied with the environments. We didn't fire blanks in training unless we just absolutely had to. It meant that you'd spend half a day detailing your weapon. The armory guys had access to solvent, and we just had CLP.

    Shooting weapons is fun and all, but blowing stuff up with C4 and making booby traps was the best. I miss it terribly. Gone are the days of a hasty ambush with claymores for me.
  3. Fishgod is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/11/2008 5:28pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist
    oh yeah, cause criminals have no way of getting guns other than stealing them from law abiding citizens...
    All I'm saying is that the responsibility of owning a firearm extends past muzzle discipline.
  4. mrm1775 is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/11/2008 5:59pm


     Style: This and that

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by bigpappaferg
    If that an AK? Sometimes I have a hard time spotting them without the wood finish and famous banana clip.
    Yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigpappaferg
    I'm definitely not opposed to an AK. Any recommendations for a good source for them?
    Your local gun store.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigpappaferg
    Are there any decent American manufacturers?
    In order to be legal, newly manufactured AK's have to have a certain percentage of American made parts, though I would have to look up the laws again to be sure of the specifics, so anything you buy will probably have a receiver that was produced in the states. Most will have some foreign made parts as well. Mine is an Arsenal AK, many of the parts for which came off an assembly line in Bulgaria, but I believe the reciever was made in Nevada.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigpappaferg
    How do they compare price-wise with the AR-15?
    Usually, they are cheaper.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigpappaferg
    Now, with these military clone type rifles, are the parts for them interchangeable from one manufacturer to another?
    Yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigpappaferg
    If I had a Bushmaster AR-15 can I use parts from an Armalite or Colt?
    Yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigpappaferg
    How about with the different AK manufacturers?
    For the most part, yes. There are slight differences between "patterns" of the design. A part manufactured for Chinese AK may or may not fit a Bulgarian AK, or it may work just fine. The product description should tell you.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigpappaferg
    If I bought an AK, should I look for one chambered for 5.56, or should I stick to the original 7.92? Is either round more readily available and/or less expensive?
    Your call. 7.62x39 is more widely available throughout the world and is universally cheaper, so if you plan to shoot a lot it may be the way to go. However, the popularity of AR15s means that the supply of 5.56 and .223 is probably larger here. For the AK, the 5.45x39 is more common as it is has been standard for the Russian military since the 70s, but it is not as widely available as either of the other two.
    I'm not giving you my opinion, I'm telling you how it is.
    Can't decide which evil black rifle to buy? My thoughts.
  5. mrm1775 is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/11/2008 6:00pm


     Style: This and that

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Now, to confuse you even more, I will break down the pros and cons so you can make an informed choice. This will get long, so I will put a link in my signature so I can reference it in the future.

    Range: Advantage to the AR. The 5.56mm round (and .223, you should look up the difference) has higher velocity and a flatter trajectory than the 7.62x39. As every Marine knows, the M16A4 (20 inch barrel) has a max effective range on a point target of 550m, and can suppress an area target at 800m. A good AK will be accurate to 400m, but for all intents and purposes it is a 200-300m rifle. The sights go further, but this really is for massed volley fire.

    Accuracy: Advantage to the AR. The same attributes that give it longer range also make the round more inherently accurate. Iron sights on the AR are also much finer and are among the most precise of their kind, whereas those on the AK are fast but somewhat crude. The AR also is also much more precisely made, so it is simply more consistent. I can squeeze out respectable accuracy with the optic I have on my AK, but it will never print groups as small as an AR. The AR is also a better platform for mounting optics.

    Recoil: AR, thought the AK is more than manageable, especially with a muzzle brake like the one I have. If you are a skilled shooter, it is not much of a concern.

    Handling: AR by a nose. Most AKs and ARs with 16 inch barrels are about the same length. The magazine releases are a matter of personal taste, but what really does it is the safety. It is just faster, quieter, and more convenient on the AR. The AR also has a bolt hold-open, which the AK lacks.

    Reliability: AK all the way. Get it dirty, run it without lube (not recommended), soak it in muddy water, throw sand in the ejection port, or dish out just about any other type of abuse and it will run like a champ. The AR will sputter and die. The attributes that make it the more accurate of the two make it less resistant to field conditions.

    The AK also experiences less fouling from its cycle of operations as it uses a gas piston operating system. This means that the propellant gasses cycle the action through impingement on the face of a piston at the front of the rifle and are vented there. The AR uses a direct gas impingement system in which the gas is redirected directly in to the bolt carrier group via a tube. In other words, it shits where it eats. This means that all of the particulate matter and hot gas goes to the last place you would want it. This not only makes the rifle dirty but leads to excessive heat build up in the chamber. I have actually seen rounds cook off and gas tubes glow in heavily used M16s. This also leads to parts wear. AKs, on the other hand, are known to have their handguards burst into flame (on full auto after a few hundred round drums), but it won't break the rifle.

    Durability: Edge to the AK, but both rifles will last you a lifetime is you take care of them. Spare parts are abundant for both as are extra magazines, but the latter gives the prize to the AK. Cheap steel AK mags are reliable and incredibly sturdy. You could use one to beat an insurgent to death and then load it up and fire as if nothing had happened. AR mags are universally more expensive but less durable. One dent in the side and you might as well throw it away. Polymer Magpul P-Mags and steel H&K mags hold up very well, but they are expensive.

    Penetration: Depends. The weight of the 7.62x39 gives FMJ an inherent edge over equivalent 5.56, but steel-core M855 (green tips) may actually have an edge over most commonly available 7.62. Armor-piercing rounds are available for the AK, but are uncommon.

    Lethality: Depends, but the AR has an edge. 7.62x39 is well known for its penetration but ironically not for its wounding potential. Most commonly available rounds are either FMJ or simple hollowpoints and, under most conditions, generally just punch a neat hole in the target and keep going. The 5.56mm and .223 ammo, on the other hand, has greater wounding potential due to its high velocity. In fact, this is why the Soviets eventually replaced their AKMs with 5.45mm AK-74s. There is a catch to this, as the M855 ammo designed for military use is designed to achieve maximum velocity from a 20 inch barrel, meaning it will not have as much punch in a 16 inch AR15, especially at long range. The upside to this is that their is a very wide variety of .223 ammo on the market that is designed for shorter barrels and has devastating effect upon a living target. Of course, its still not as cheap as the 7.62.

    Quality: As for consistency, you could probably give the edge to the AK. There are several good manufacturers of AR15s, such as Bushmaster, Stag, LMT, and others, and they can be relied upon to give you a good product. Watch out for cheaper brands, though, especially if the rifle is used. The AR design is very sensitive to the quality of the materials that go into its manufacture. On the other hand, AK quality is largely relative. A cheap Romanian AK will usually work about as well as a high end Bulgarian model. In my experience they don't even seem to vary too much in accuracy. If the parts are decent quality and it works, it passes the test. An AK is an AK.

    Aside from the just agonizing over the question of "AR vs. AK," there are other options you might want to investigate.

    1. Get a decent quality AK and a stripped AR receiver. That way you can have an AK now and build an AR at some time in the future. The receiver will run you less than $200 and is the part that has to be registered, everything else you can buy off the shelf.

    2. If you prefer the handling of the AR but want better durability, check out the gas piston uppers being offered by Patriot Ordnance Factory, LWRC, Bushmaster, and a few others. They solve the problems inherent in the original operating system, particularly in short barreled rifles, and so far have proven very reliable (though maybe not AK reliable yet). The downside is cost. Expect a new gas piston upper to cost you more than a complete standard rifle.

    3. Buy neither. There are other scary black rifles on the market that you are not considering. Hegs and I are both quite happy with our Sig 556s. That rifle gives you all of the advantages of the AR with much of the reliability of the AK. It is a little heavier up front, but I'm sure you're a strong guy. Owners of the Robinson XCR also seem to be very happy with it, and the best part of that rifle is that it is easily convertible to other calibers. The FN SCAR and Bushmaster ACR also look promising, and should be on the market before a ban goes into effect, though I wouldn't risk waiting around if you currently don't have an EBR.
    Last edited by mrm1775; 11/11/2008 6:13pm at .
    I'm not giving you my opinion, I'm telling you how it is.
    Can't decide which evil black rifle to buy? My thoughts.
  6. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/11/2008 8:47pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist
    oh yeah, cause criminals have no way of getting guns other than stealing them from law abiding citizens.

    that's why here in new york city, where guns are almost impossible to get via legal means, we have NO guns on the street.

    none at all. no shooting deaths either.

    i hear criminals complaining all the time "damn, i wish law abiding citizens could get guns here, then i could steal one, and then i'd be set!"
    In order for your posts to have some impact, or benefit to others, you have to drop the sarcasm at some point. Hopefully before the final "/quote".
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  7. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/11/2008 9:48pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by AnnaTrocity
    As a civilian I am unlikely to ever see real "field time" that requires the use of suppressive fire and move tactics. Short of having to take out my whole neighborhood...at least :) Even in a highly unlikely complete breakdown breakdown of society I really doubt anyone is going to have to fire off multiple magazines in rapid succession for an extended period of time.
    Perhaps. In case of just a regular breakdown of society, not a "highly unlikely complete breakdown breakdown", it helps to know the ins & outs of the situation.... :laughing7

    Well...I am a gear queer that likes to blow big bucks on the best stuff I can afford rather then just "good enough". I certainly want my rifle to go a thousand rounds or better without needing to be cleaned and am doing what I can to make that want a reality by upgrading internal parts and doing my research ..but there is reality to take into account and I don't feel that the arguable slight reliability edge of the AK-47 trumps....everything that the AR does better.
    Okay, there ya go. You like your toys. I can totally appreciate that. However... please don't think that the only thing the AK has going for it is an "arguable slight reliability edge".
    This isn't slight:
    YouTube - AK-74 Reliablity Test at Blackwater

    Quote Originally Posted by Suarez International Newsletter
    The AK at 600 Yards / "Frozen Chosin" AAR

    Worland Wy, this weekend. we had 16 people show, 3 WT'ers. guns shot included, ar-15, 3 AK's, M1 Garands, M14, AR-10, SVT-40, XCR, Rem 700 sniper.

    day 1
    classic iron sighted rifles performed as expected on the 300-50 match. with the garand taking a 240 out of 300 and the SVT-40 139 out of 300. the AR-10 scoped took high honors tho, beating the garand shooter.

    in the human wave attack, the garands performed much lower than the 20-30 round mag fed rifles getting off less than 75 rounds in 3 min. the mag feds did markedly better with the highest score going to an AK that managed 98 rounds and 89% hits. The XCR was on the way to domination when it Kaboomed.

    day 2
    we just sighted our guns and farted around on steel out to 600. Now I know this defy's conventional wisdom and everyone was really amazed at the results, BUUUT heres what we saw the AK do.

    We sighted out to 300 on pulled and marked targets using stock IRON sights.

    We moved back to 400 and proceeded to put rounds on steel with a spotter calling shots. using a Romanian wasr with a romy folder I was able to get about 85% hits on steel from prone with no problem. a few flyers and some shooter error were mostly responsible for misses. results were repeated by 4 other shooters on my gun and a VEPR as well.

    At 500 we attempted again. we adjusted sights using only the factory ramp settings throughout the experiment having zeroed earlier out to 300. Once again we were able to obtain 80% hits with relative ease using the "200 yard" AK. Once again we verified using another shooter.

    Back to 600!! once again spotted shots with wasr/folder. despite my best efforts I couldn't keep them on the steel more that 20% of the time.

    600 seems to be the crossover point on a mansized target using ball ammo and service grade rifle. I have confirmed this with several rifles and feel that after 500 one must use a much more capable gun and ammo to consistently make hits. a rest/pack/bipod is alomost required at this range as well.

    Ammo I was using was 762x39 Wolf 122gr HP black box.
    steel was 16"w x 36"h shaped like a sillouete.
    5 mph half value wind at 25f and 4050ft elev. with a slight cow manure taste to the air.

    comments

    -the x39 was not really whacking the gong at these ranges and you could usually only hear a slight 'tink' it was definitly running out of gas at these ranges.
    Very much the same situation with .223...

    -the factory ramp sight settings seemed to be right on.

    -the front sight is wider than the target, but by using a 6 o'clock hold and centering the target on the sight post, you can still be fairly accurate.

    -i was using a pack and the mag for a rest. sometimes a loose mag would cause a failure to feed if i put pressure on the mag wrong. this might be gun related or mag related. not sure.

    -the WASR was bone stock except for the folder, and prints about 4-5 MOA when i checked it with this ammo a coupla weeks ago.

    -whoever told you that you cant hit with an AK at 500, lied to you. It's VERY doable.

    -hopefully one of the other guys will back me upon this so I dont look like a big liar.

    If I ever have to kill my entire neighborhood I'd rather do it from several hundred yards away at my leisure with my eotech (which conveniently has a recticle that represents bullet drop up to 600 meters) and my magnifier rather then by stalking through the streets and having close quarters engagement like a soldier with a squad and an actual mission.
    Become familiar with the AK, it's sights, and I doubt that you'll have many, if any complaints.
    Knowing the weapon you have, the mission for which it is designed, and thus it's limitations, is very important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe Suarez
    WHAT IS A RIFLE FOR??
    A rifle is for killing. A statement as forcefull as it is clear.
    Now I am not a classical hunter per se. I hunt as a tactical exercise, and not for sport...although it is certainly fun to hunt. And although I may eat what I kill, it would be much easier to drive into town and buy a steak. The purpose for me is to test my abilities and skills with my fighting rifles.
    So, in that sense...what is a rifle for??
    1). Reaching out and hitting things
    2). Busting through stuff to hit things
    How far do you need to reach and what do you need to punch through? When we look at the WW1 era, they didn't need to punch through anything unusual, but the dynamics of conflict required reach. Read McBride for the dynamics of trench warfare.
    As the century progressed and WW2 and Korea rolled around, the dynamics seemed to change a little bit. I've read several accounts where the shots taken were 125-150 yards. Reasons - in urban battlefields, it is difficult to see anyone farther than that.
    The Germans saw this and developed their Sturmgewher, the Russians the AK series, and the Americans their M1 Carbine...(which was not as applicable as an intermediate rifle as initially thought). The entire Assault Rifle-Intermediate cartridge concept revolved around shorter distances as seen in the urban problem coupled with the need for more firepower.
    Somewhere around this era, the FAL became popular, the AR-15 (the M4's granddaddy), and the G3 burst onto the world's battlefields. The AK was already there since 1949 IIRC.
    For short ranges as seen inside urban areas, or heavily wooded, overgrown areas, super-long range shooting capability was not an issue...what was an issue was the ability to hit with authority within this distance envelope and be able to punch through things such as automobile bodies, brush, vegetation, and light walls. The Russians, like the Germans before them, had realized this.
    That the 308 battle rifle can do it better, theoretically, than the 7.62x39 or the 5.56 is really not that important as long as the job gets done. Results and not theory are important.
    Now if the fight is clearly, and not just possibly, going to be at longer ranges...beyond 200 yards, then the advantages of the Battle Rifle/.308 cartridge become obvious and welcome.
    There are those who think a certain .223/5.56 load is better than the 7.62x51/.308. In my opinion, that is seriously wishful thinking. The 5.56 is an intermediate cartridge. It is suitable for certain things. Reaching outside the urban fight environment is not one of them.
    I am also well aware of shooting at a range at 400 and 500 yard paper targets. It is not the same in environments away from the range. I'll bet most of us would not even be able to see a human being hidden at 400 yards.
    Can you make an Assault Rifle into a sniper rifle? Sure. You can also put an optic on an R PK and call it the Designated Marksman’s Rifle like the Tabuk does. It is still what it is...and assault rifle firing an intermediate cartridge and will never be a replacement for a full powered battle rifle.
    Look at it this way..if the 5.56 (or 7.62x39 to be added in fairness) was suitable for sniping, the world's snipers would be using it and their M40s, Remingtons, and other special 308 based rifles would be collecting dust in the armory.
    So the mission will dictate choices as well. For me...for shots taken inside 200 yards...with the need to possibly punch through cover, brush, vegetation,...be unaffected by wind at these distances, and still hit with authority after doing so, my choice is the Kalashnikov and the 7.62x39mm. That is not to say the 5.56 won't do much of this...but I don't think it will do all of it, nor as well.
    Now to really stir the pot. How will a battle rifle compare to the AK? In the urban close range problem, I think it will be easier to operate with the AK.
    I am not sure the added power of the 308 will change anything up close like this. Moving through congested/confined areas the vote goes to the AK as well.
    I am also well aware of the ability to prepare a shorty battle rifle such as the M1A Bush Rifle/ M1A Socom, and FAL Paras. However, one does not produce a shootable battle rifle that is also light. Carry one of these around with you all day and the difference will be seen quick enough.
    Moreover is the issue of cost. I know...I know...how much is your life worth. We've heard and answered that before.
    If money is no object then equip a platoon of bodyguards. If we are looking at what you can afford, the man on a budget can buy a suitable rifle for the cost of a FAL PARA lower receiver! The M1A Socom, or the FAL Para will do just as well in the urban environment as the AK (in spite of the weight given a strong rifleman), but is the extra power necessary??
    Is the extra cost of that extra power necessary? Only you and your checkbook can answer that.
    Once we leave the confines of the urban problem, or examine it from the realm of sniping, we leave the intermediate cartridge behind. It simply will not reach far enough.
    With a battle rifle and a 308 (or 7.62x54R for that matter), you can make up for the limits of the Assault Rifle cartridge. So first decide what your mission will likely be...then choose your weapons with an open mind unbound by prejudices or by pseudo- patriotic traditions.
    Next time, we will discuss the philosophical reasons for having a rifle.
    Just a little food for thought. Well, more like a buffet. Take it or leave it. As a hobbyist, most of this info is superfluous
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  8. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/12/2008 12:51am

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I went shooting today to celebrate Veteran's Day ( & I didn't even have to buy the ammo!)

    Who else went to the range to celebrate?
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  9. SFGOON is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/12/2008 3:17am


     Style: Systema, BJJ, Arrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    For those of you who think that that max range for a point target with an M-16 is 550M, I will remind you that muzzle velocity is not a constant and does, indeed, degrade as the round flies downrange. By the time it gets out to 550M it's kinetically impotent.

    At 75M 5.56 no longer causes hydrostatic shock and has a very shallow would canal.

    Don't get me wrong, I love that rifle. But, I know better than to waste rounds on someone whose facial features I can't discern.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    You sound like a foaming-at-the-mouth-loon out of Dr. Strangelove.
    Sometimes, we put Ricin in the Cocaine. :ninja7:
  10. mrm1775 is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/12/2008 4:36am


     Style: This and that

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SFGOON
    For those of you who think that that max range for a point target with an M-16 is 550M, I will remind you that muzzle velocity is not a constant and does, indeed, degrade as the round flies downrange. By the time it gets out to 550M it's kinetically impotent.

    At 75M 5.56 no longer causes hydrostatic shock and has a very shallow would canal.

    Don't get me wrong, I love that rifle. But, I know better than to waste rounds on someone whose facial features I can't discern.
    My company killed a few people beyond that range with M16s and SAWs when we were in Afghanistan. Pussies wouldn't engage us unless there was a valley between us and them. It may not kill you as reliably as a .308, but it will most assuredly **** up your day.

    Besides, better to wound your enemy than not him them at all. At least that way two of his buddies will be tied up trying to move him.
    I'm not giving you my opinion, I'm telling you how it is.
    Can't decide which evil black rifle to buy? My thoughts.
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