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  1. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/03/2008 7:20pm

    supporting member
     Style: German longsword, .45 ACP

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    There you go. All I'll say is Wounded, you misinterpreted a cops story and applied it to regular citizens.
    I don't get it. You're saying that if a civilian with a CCW, as opposed to a cop, is violently attacked he's less likely than the cop to have someone try and grab his gun away?
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Th...%28attorney%29
  2. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/03/2008 7:21pm

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     Style: German longsword, .45 ACP

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GuiltySpark
    People consider ahida kim a martial arts expert.
    "Expert" is misused often.

    What Kein said, why the long response. Answer is no.
    Usually you're a pretty articulate dude. If the answer is "no", then why not?
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Th...%28attorney%29
  3. CannibalCrowley is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/03/2008 8:35pm


     Style: Starting Strength

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 7thSamurai
    Is a .357 an equalizer in an armed vs unarmed fight? No.
    Facts and logic sat otherwise. Example: Woman in a Wheelchair Shoots an Attacker

    For a woman in a wheelchair being choked from behind, a .357 has at least once shown to be quite an effective equalizer.
  4. 7thSamurai is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/03/2008 9:05pm


     Style: BJJ, Striking, TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ok, I'll bite. While there are likely exceptions to every rule, I disagree that possessing a firearm makes you equal with anyone who is not in possession of a firearm at the time of the fight. This is not dueling pistols at dawn.

    In your example, the shooter was in a wheelchair. Presumably, she was choked although I struggle to really believe that he was attempting to kill her for a pocket book. I wonder if the bruising on her neck is not related to having a purse or chain jerked. Not that it wouldn't happen in some situations, but it's a leap (IMO) to go from someone who mugs people to someone who kills for a pocket book. I'll accept that it has happened in the past and will likely happen in the future, but my experience is that most criminals don't just murder for **** and grins.

    Basically, when present your firearm, you cease being equal with you unarmed opponent. Do you shoot to disarm, disable, or kill? Are most shooters even proficient enough to shoot to disable? If a drunk on the street starts a fight with you with his bare fists and you shoot him, are you equal? Where do you draw the line between being on equal grounds and using excessive force?
  5. vigilus is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/04/2008 1:46am


     Style: Yoshinkan Aikido, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wounded Ronin
    Usually you're a pretty articulate dude. If the answer is "no", then why not?
    Ahhh okay I'll bite too, you baited me :)

    It honestly seemed like something you would find on MAP (no offense intended)

    I mentioned a few reasons. Being a martial art's "expert" is a fairly open qualification.
    Steven Segal (because I know you guys love him), Ashida Kim, That LT X guy. There's tons of Martial art's "experts" out there. Tons of false ''experts' too right? It's impossible to really decide who's an expert and who isn't.

    Also, an expert in which martial art? If I'm a black belt in Aikido or Iaido, does that justify me owning a gun? Or BJJ or Judo? Martial arts covers way too many spheres. How do you qualify which art should give someone access to owning a firearm and which shouldn't?

    Shooting and martial arts both encompass muscle memory sure but having been shooting for 24 years and doing martial arts for about 9, I personally don't see how they really relate to one another.

    it would be an easier argument to suggest only soldiers or LEOs should own firearms since they have the training.

    Also it sounds like you're talking about guns in purely a self defense role. Many people shoot guns recreationally. Some people simply collect firearms but still require a licence. Having a black belt in Karate just to collect vintage firearms seems a little extreme.

    I think the concept you're trying to debate is too narrow and not really considering firearms in general.
    Last edited by vigilus; 11/04/2008 1:58am at .
    You are not free whose liberty is won by the rigour of other, more righteous souls. Your are merely protected. Your freedom is parasitic, you suck the honourable man dry and offer nothing in return. You who have enjoyed freedom, who have done nothing to earn it
  6. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/04/2008 7:16pm

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     Style: German longsword, .45 ACP

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GuiltySpark
    Ahhh okay I'll bite too, you baited me :)

    It honestly seemed like something you would find on MAP (no offense intended)

    I mentioned a few reasons. Being a martial art's "expert" is a fairly open qualification.
    Steven Segal (because I know you guys love him), Ashida Kim, That LT X guy. There's tons of Martial art's "experts" out there. Tons of false ''experts' too right? It's impossible to really decide who's an expert and who isn't.

    Also, an expert in which martial art? If I'm a black belt in Aikido or Iaido, does that justify me owning a gun? Or BJJ or Judo? Martial arts covers way too many spheres. How do you qualify which art should give someone access to owning a firearm and which shouldn't?

    Shooting and martial arts both encompass muscle memory sure but having been shooting for 24 years and doing martial arts for about 9, I personally don't see how they really relate to one another.

    it would be an easier argument to suggest only soldiers or LEOs should own firearms since they have the training.

    Also it sounds like you're talking about guns in purely a self defense role. Many people shoot guns recreationally. Some people simply collect firearms but still require a licence. Having a black belt in Karate just to collect vintage firearms seems a little extreme.

    I think the concept you're trying to debate is too narrow and not really considering firearms in general.

    OK, there was a certain amount of ambiguity in my thread title. It could have been a little more precise in terms of what I meant to ask had I worded it a different way. Perhaps it should have read, "Should a civilian have significant ability in hand-to-hand combat before he or she considers carrying a pistol for the purpose of self-defense?"
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Th...%28attorney%29
  7. EmetShamash is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/04/2008 9:45pm


     Style: Chinese Martial Arts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Firearms training is a martial art IMO. Seriously.

    Are we talking about public policy or personal policy here? If we are talking about public policy, I think legislation barring firearms to people that haven't taken a certain amount of martial arts training is ridiculous. If we are talking about personal policy, I think people "should" take some sort of firearms training for whatever purpose that they are interested in.

    Great equalizers huh? This seems like another semantics argument, **** that ****.
  8. mike321 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/05/2008 8:36pm


     Style: kenpo, Wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Isn't the great equalizer referring to genetics playing less of a role in potential effectiveness with a gun versus say fists? I don't think the quote/saying has anything to do the fact that you still have to learn how to use a gun.
  9. moli is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/05/2008 9:19pm


     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've heard the rule of thumb is that a trained person needs 15 feet to deploy a weapon against an attacker. Unlike cops, civilians can't draw the weapon early and hold it down near their leg to prepare for the situation.

    Given this, I think it'd be a good idea to have some level of fighting ability in close. Weapon retention would be good, or just being able to make room to draw & aim.
  10. jamz is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2008 11:33am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: kempo karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sadly, I've noticed that a lot of weapons retention training is available to LEOs only.
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