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  1. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    ...is THE PENETRATOR

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    Posted On:
    11/02/2008 2:33pm

    supporting member
     Style: German longsword, .45 ACP

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Should people be MA experts first before considering carrying a handgun?

    Many people in the US feel that they'd like to carry a handgun for self defense. But from the standpoint of self defense, does it really make sense to have a handgun, but no martial arts/combative sports ability?

    The other day I was talking to a friend who used to be a cop and he was telling me how he'd learned various techniques for gun retention, but also for drawing and shooting someone at very close range. It seems like there's this big concern that if you carry a handgun someone or some people might tackle you, take your gun, and shoot you with it. That seems like a reasonable concern, but then why would you also try and train to try and pull out a handgun when someone's on top of you so that you can shoot them maybe once if you're lucky before they'll have a pretty big chance to grab your slide and take your gun? In other words, if the possibility of someone grabbing your gun is a serious issue, why would you approach clinch/grapple situations with the idea of trying to use your gun and basically making it really easy for the other guy to grab it?

    If pulling a handgun is a flawed response to someone clinching or grappling with you, though, then it would seem that as far as self defense goes that the only "good" responses in that situation would be to use martial arts/combative sports to escape from that situation, or use a knife if you have knife skills. If, on the contrary, you had certain handgun skills, but zero of those other skills, someone who is right on top of you would probably be able to stop you from pulling out the handgun in the first place. Even if you had a handgun in that situation and wanted to pull it out you would be a whole lot more likely to be able to do so if you could at least grapple a bit; you could at least have the means to stop the attacker from controlling your arms fully.

    When I think about it that way, unless someone has a crippling injury or is infirm, a handgun seems kind of flawed for self-defense unless a person also has some hand to hand combat skills. This is because presumably someone who wants to attack you and who is halfway intelligent wouldn't tell you that he's going to attack you while he's standing 20 feet away, but instead would probably start out by tackling you, sucker punching you, or what have you.

    Thoughts?
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Th...%28attorney%29
  2. EmetShamash is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/02/2008 2:57pm


     Style: Chinese Martial Arts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree.

    Using a weapon of any kind requires you to be able to be in a position to use it effectively. Getting into that position requires at least some degree of MA training. Police, from what I have heard, have had somewhat of a problem with weapon retention because of poor MA training. I would think that educational material geared toward police would have good answers.

    For me it is extremely excessive to carry a handgun on a daily basis so a pocket knife is my daily carry. Good knives IMO are hard to disarm, quick, silent, and very easy to disable someone (without a gun) quickly with one.
  3. golgo is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/02/2008 3:04pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: No Mas

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wounded Ronin

    If pulling a handgun is a flawed response to someone clinching or grappling with you, though, then it would seem that as far as self defense goes that the only "good" responses in that situation would be to use martial arts/combative sports to escape from that situation, or use a knife if you have knife skills.
    In th US pullling a handgun in response to someone trying to hit or grapple you is the innapropriate response, as itt will likely result with you being in jail.

    You arent allowed to repsond with deadly force to someone who isn't attacking with deadly force.
  4. autospike is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/02/2008 3:39pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I assume we're specifically talking about a citizen carrying a concealed gun.

    The first thing is that your assailant will (hopefully) not know that you have a concealed weapon. That's of course different than a cop who has one prominently carried on his hip. If you do become clinched up or start grappling, he may (he will) find it.

    What you're talking about is In Fight Weapons Access. In jits you want "position before submission", here you are looking for "position before acquisition". It doesn't matter (much) whether you are talking about a knife, stick, gun, blackjack, or sap. If you become weapons fixated and/or your timing is off, and you try to get to your gadget before you're ready, you're going to get a fouled draw. The type weapon and the location in which you carry it can give you larger and more forgiving window of opportunity, but not that much.

    Something else that is important is that you learn ways to handle people that you come into contact with. Learn to spot predatory behavior and keep those people at a distance. Someone mugging you isn't going to do it from a distance; they are going to have to get in close to you. If you are able to spot these folks and this behavior, you *might* be able to establish a grip on your weapon before a fight begins. I'm not saying that's a given - it's just a possibility.

    To answer your question, I don't think you have to be an "MA expert" to carry a gun. How many cops are "MA experts"? What they have done is to receive some very specialized training. But just like every thing else, not all training is equal. Some agencies get very good training while others is unfortunately insufficient. It's also just like everything else in that a 2 hour course or a weekend seminar will not make you bullet proof. It takes training and dedication.

    The training is out there for civilians if you look hard enough. Of course separating the wheat from the chaff can be challenging. I should also say that while I don't think being an MA "expert" is necessary, it certainly does help tremendously to have a solid background in striking and grappling.
    Last edited by autospike; 11/02/2008 9:06pm at .
  5. senseipookie is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/02/2008 6:56pm


     Style: Shorin Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Carrying a firearm is just another option in an overall self defense strategy. It's no better or worse than MA training, running away fast, or anything else. You should be properly trained in, and ready to utilize, any and all options because you can't dictate what situation you'll be in when the need arises.

    As golgo mentinoed, you will probably go to jail if you pull a gun on someone who is only attempting to push or hit you It could also have the unintended consequence of him being legally justified in escalating to deadly force against you in this inane litigious society. So I would never recommend that being your only response to a threat. What happens if that's all you know and end up in a self defense situation when you don't happen to be carrying?

    Unfortunately in the US too many people think gun and nothing else. How many times have you gotten into the "discussion" with people who claim that they don't believe in "that krotty stuff" because they would just shoot you "and I'd like to see you use that Mr Miyagi crap to block a bullet?" I usually ask them if they are carrying at the moment, and probably 75% of the time the answer is no. "So I'll just sit here and wait for you to go home and get your gun to come back and shoot me"

    So the best thing to do is get training and keep your skills up to date in several self defense methods to hedge your bets. This includes (probably most importantly) maintaining an awareness of your surroundings and being able to manage your adrenaline in stressful situations, as well as keeping yourself fit. MA training is a good second step with at least basic knowledge in both striking and grappling is a good next step. You don't need to be an expert, just be able to handle yourself and not freeze.

    If you choose to carry a weapon (firearm included) GET YOURSELF TRAINED. There are lots of very good firearms training courses around. You can choose one of the bigger academies (in my area wa have the Sig Sauer Academy and Mas Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute), but if money is a problem (as in my case) there are several shooting ranges and sportsmen's clubs around that offer NRA defensive shooting courses from time to time for not much money. Most of these courses address the whole carry/draw/retention issue as well as proper target acquisition, muzzle control, etc. And good ones will go over in detail which situations are appropriate for firearms and which are not. For the ones that are not, use one of your other options.
  6. fubar is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/02/2008 7:51pm


     Style: ex-TKD 2 Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Choosing to carry a concealed pistol to protect yourself and family means choosing to not get into fights over anything except saving your life.

    yeah , but ... what if ? ... what about ? ....

    I don't know the answers to them above straw man questions. But at 44 i do not want to fight with big hostile half drunk didn't-get-the-girl tonight friday night fighters who think it'll be fun to **** with the grown up guy walking his dog past the bar while the imaginary bad guy I just described is smoking on the street in front of the doorway over nothing I care about.

    What the **** are you looking at ?
    Nothing , man. Sorry. I'll keep going ...

    because I do not want to shoot big fucking bloody holes through their stupid faces. I want to be left alone - unarrested - so I can continue to be a gun nut right wing psycho who posts on the internet and goes shooting 6 times a month . If I get into a shooting over nothing I lose that ability.

    ... That said , I am a 3rd dan in TKD ( the kind where we punched each other in the face ) and had a few years of Muay Thai before I got lame and burnt out . And am constantly amazed at shooters I know who don't know anything about self defense - armed or not - and think the pistol in their belt is a magic force field or some kind of lucky charm that repels violent shitheads with it's aura of badassery.
  7. Little Lamb is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/02/2008 8:47pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    MA expert before carrying a gun? That doesn't make any sense. The gun is the great equalizer. It is popular (in part) because it allows the weak, the untrained, the peasant, the professional, the worker, the serf, the doctor, etc., to protect himself.

    With guns, the masses can be made deadly in short order. We don't need an aristocratic fighting class that spends most of its time and money training with horses, armor and battle axes.

    Not that a little MA wouldn't help the average gun carrier. But necessary? Nope.
  8. 7thSamurai is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/02/2008 11:37pm


     Style: BJJ, Striking, TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Little Lamb
    MA expert before carrying a gun? That doesn't make any sense. The gun is the great equalizer. It is popular (in part) because it allows the weak, the untrained, the peasant, the professional, the worker, the serf, the doctor, etc., to protect himself.

    With guns, the masses can be made deadly in short order. We don't need an aristocratic fighting class that spends most of its time and money training with horses, armor and battle axes.

    Not that a little MA wouldn't help the average gun carrier. But necessary? Nope.
    Firearms are not equalizers. I'm going to go with the notion that you're being sarcastic.
  9. Nid is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/03/2008 12:28am

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What's with all the long responses.

    The answer is no.
  10. vigilus is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/03/2008 5:35am


     Style: Yoshinkan Aikido, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    People consider ahida kim a martial arts expert.
    "Expert" is misused often.

    What Kein said, why the long response. Answer is no.

    For me it is extremely excessive to carry a handgun on a daily basis so a pocket knife is my daily carry. Good knives IMO are hard to disarm, quick, silent, and very easy to disable someone (without a gun) quickly with one.
    lol

    If you think stabbing someone with a pocket knife is easy and silent I have some water front land for sale in flordia for you.
    You are not free whose liberty is won by the rigour of other, more righteous souls. Your are merely protected. Your freedom is parasitic, you suck the honourable man dry and offer nothing in return. You who have enjoyed freedom, who have done nothing to earn it
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