228892 Bullies, 4734 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 11 to 20 of 69
Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 12 3456 ... LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. LiJieLong is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    29

    Posted On:
    11/01/2008 7:30pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Tai Chi Fist and Sword

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington
    Sure. Stances do not build large amounts of leg strength. Strength increases are small and generally are experienced near the beginning of regular practice. Stances are designed to increase balance and to train not just the sinking but the relaxing of the kua for mobility and quick shifts in weight. There's no particular need to hold stances for a very long time. Better to get the hang of the stances and then quickly move toward shifting weight from one leg to another, and footwork for entries and such.

    Stances are only indirectly useful for combat. One generally wouldn't fight in a stance--not for more than a fraction of a second anyway. One's "root" doesn't mean dropping down into a horse stance and pretending to be immovable, as anyone who has ever tried that and then just been punched in the eye will tell you. Root is balance, and balance is essentially mobile in combat -- you may leap, move quickly, shift so that an empty leg becomes a full one in a moment, etc. Stances help one get the feeling for sinking's one weight, but rooting has to be associated with nimbleness (that is, it has to be balance, not just planting one's feet and hoping the other guy cannot knock you down) to be very effective in combat.
    I have to disagree about the exercise part. Stances build up huge amounts of leg strength. It's isometric exercise. Here's a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isometric_exercise
    You keep the muscles static. That's why gong fu sifus have you sit in a horse stance for hours. Holding a stance helps make that one moment in your movement solid and stable. It gives you more confidence to go into a stance, whether it be a drop stance or bow stance.
    It's also the logic behind die hard traditionalists to have their students hike their leg up to their head and balance in weird poses (also why dancers have such good balance).

    I agree with what you said here. You're not going to sit in a stance for the whole fight. That's why you have to be able to shift into different stances instantaneously when need be. You still have to be fleet and agile.
  2. Rivington is offline
    Rivington's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    East Bay, CA
    Posts
    4,733

    Posted On:
    11/01/2008 8:00pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taijiquan/Shuai-Chiao/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Isometrics, Strength, Endurance and Stance training (Tai Chi Focused)

    Quote Originally Posted by LiJieLong
    I have to disagree about the exercise part. Stances build up huge amounts of leg strength.
    There is no disagreement. You're just sure that your ignorance is as good as my knowledge. It's a common human tendency for someone to believe what he was told first. You are wrong, and so completely wrong that you don't even realize that the Wikipedia article you cite undermines rather than proves your point. How can "huge amounts of leg strength" be built when "isometric training increases strength at the specific joint angles of the exercises performed and additional joint angles to a lesser extent"?

    Did you even read that link, or do you simply think that "isometric" is some magic word meaning "awesome!"

    The ma bu I've done involves some standing to get the hang of it and to experience the torso's weight as solidly "atop" the arch of the stance, and then we moved quickly into shifting weight from one leg to another while keeping the knees on the same vertical plane, then moving into various exercises that involve exploring movement and developing a whole-body connection.

    Do "gong fu sifus" make their students stand in horse stance for hours? I'm sure a lot of them do, and I'm sure some of them even think it is a good idea for reasons other than the positive impact stretching out the curriculum has on their pocketbooks. However, it is not functional for building significant leg strength and I, luckily, have managed to stumble across teachers who both a) don't make people stand in a single static horse stance for hours and hours and b) actually know what the hell they're doing.

    Funny how those two things seem to go together so often.
  3. It is Fake is offline
    It is Fake's Avatar

    Administrator

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    34,019

    Posted On:
    11/01/2008 8:07pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LiJieLong
    I have to disagree about the exercise part. Stances build up huge amounts of leg strength. It's isometric exercise. Here's a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isometric_exercise
    You keep the muscles static. That's why gong fu sifus have you sit in a horse stance for hours. Holding a stance helps make that one moment in your movement solid and stable. It gives you more confidence to go into a stance, whether it be a drop stance or bow stance.
    It's also the logic behind die hard traditionalists to have their students hike their leg up to their head and balance in weird poses (also why dancers have such good balance).
    This is why I said "Oh boy." I knew you'd be posting these types of "facts."
  4. LiJieLong is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    29

    Posted On:
    11/01/2008 9:38pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Tai Chi Fist and Sword

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington
    There is no disagreement. You're just sure that your ignorance is as good as my knowledge. It's a common human tendency for someone to believe what he was told first. You are wrong, and so completely wrong that you don't even realize that the Wikipedia article you cite undermines rather than proves your point. How can "huge amounts of leg strength" be built when "isometric training increases strength at the specific joint angles of the exercises performed and additional joint angles to a lesser extent"?

    Did you even read that link, or do you simply think that "isometric" is some magic word meaning "awesome!"

    The ma bu I've done involves some standing to get the hang of it and to experience the torso's weight as solidly "atop" the arch of the stance, and then we moved quickly into shifting weight from one leg to another while keeping the knees on the same vertical plane, then moving into various exercises that involve exploring movement and developing a whole-body connection.

    Do "gong fu sifus" make their students stand in horse stance for hours? I'm sure a lot of them do, and I'm sure some of them even think it is a good idea for reasons other than the positive impact stretching out the curriculum has on their pocketbooks. However, it is not functional for building significant leg strength and I, luckily, have managed to stumble across teachers who both a) don't make people stand in a single static horse stance for hours and hours and b) actually know what the hell they're doing.

    Funny how those two things seem to go together so often.
    Forgive me if a wiki articles is too unworthy for your adulated eyes. May I present to thou a more credible article that is not from a ".com"? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6706740

    Did you read it then? I'll highlight some points since you obviously didn't. "isometric exercises are 32% better at acheiving maximal muscle strength". I already got the fact that it doesn't exercise the full range of motion of the joint, but I already stated that in my first comment here. If you still doubt, know that Charles Atlas created his body using a system that involved isometric exercise.
    No, they make you do that on your own time. I don't know what evil, conniving, enterprising people you've been with.
  5. LiJieLong is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    29

    Posted On:
    11/01/2008 9:44pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Tai Chi Fist and Sword

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    This is why I said "Oh boy." I knew you'd be posting these types of "facts."
    Wiki articles have been verified to be extremely accurate in manners of science, since they tend to be a bit less controversial than politics, or what people think of the newest Jonas Brother's album:gaygay:
  6. It is Fake is offline
    It is Fake's Avatar

    Administrator

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    34,019

    Posted On:
    11/01/2008 9:48pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LiJieLong
    Wiki articles have been verified to be extremely accurate in manners of science, since they tend to be a bit less controversial than politics, or what people think of the newest Jonas Brother's album:gaygay:
    So? You assumed I said anything about wiki. I was talking about you trying to compare isometric exercises with stance training.

    The typical fuzzy logic used by many an uneducated CMA Instructor.
  7. LiJieLong is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    29

    Posted On:
    11/01/2008 10:00pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Tai Chi Fist and Sword

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    So? You assumed I said anything about wiki. I was talking about you trying to compare isometric exercises with stance training.

    The typical fuzzy logic used by many an uneducated CMA Instructor.
    Woops.

    Stance training is isometric exercise. Just to suppress any confusions, we are talking about squatting in a horse stance w/ or w/o weights, right?
  8. It is Fake is offline
    It is Fake's Avatar

    Administrator

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    34,019

    Posted On:
    11/01/2008 10:16pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LiJieLong
    Woops.

    Stance training is isometric exercise. Just to suppress any confusions, we are talking about squatting in a horse stance w/ or w/o weights, right?
    Maybe you are. Stance training is multiple stances/footwork to me.
  9. Jack Rusher is offline
    Jack Rusher's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    2,136

    Posted On:
    11/01/2008 10:21pm


     Style: ti da shuai na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LiJieLong
    May I present to thou a more credible article that is not from a ".com"? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6706740
    This article is about test subjects flexing the muscle that adducts the thumb for 5 second bursts once a minute. You're barking up the wrong limb. Here's a quote from a related PubMed article that deals with the leg:

    The results showed that the rhythmic regime increased the MVC at the rate of 5.5% per week and the sustained training increased MVC at the rate of 3.3% per week. However, only training using sustained contractions produced a progressive increase in endurance as measured by performance in a fatigue test.
    ... that is, strength was gained faster with rhythmic squeezes (i.e. repetitions), but isometrics increased muscle endurance.

    If you want a good argument for why the horse stance is a worthwhile conditioning exercise, have a look at "wall sits" and the "chair pose" from yoga. All three forms of training are very useful in strengthening and -- more importantly -- increasing the endurance of small muscles around the knee as a form of injury prevention ("pre-hab").

    OTOH, if you want to make your legs crazy powerful, consider squats & dead lifts.
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
  10. LiJieLong is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    29

    Posted On:
    11/01/2008 10:28pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Tai Chi Fist and Sword

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jackrusher
    This article is about test subjects flexing the muscle that adducts the thumb for 5 second bursts once a minute. You're barking up the wrong limb. Here's a quote from a related PubMed article that deals with the leg:



    ... that is, strength was gained faster with rhythmic squeezes (i.e. repetitions), but isometrics increased muscle endurance.

    If you want a good argument for why the horse stance is a worthwhile conditioning exercise, have a look at "wall sits" and the "chair pose" from yoga. All three forms of training are very useful in strengthening and -- more importantly -- increasing the endurance of small muscles around the knee as a form of injury prevention ("pre-hab").

    OTOH, if you want to make your legs crazy powerful, consider squats & dead lifts.
    Your ability to actually decipher all that is extremely laudable. I could only get a few tidbits of info here and there.

    That's some good info. Thanks.

    I tried to positive varrot your post, but got a message: "you must really like jackrusher. Go do some pushups". It seems that you are untouchable for me.
Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 12 3456 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.