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  1. BackFistMonkey is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/02/2008 3:40pm

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     Style: Recovery-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by golgo
    You make some good points, although I would argue that the OP's original logic on needing forearm exercises was flawed - He has pain from martial arts/fighting and weightlifting, so he is following the advice of a rock climber friend (and not a PT or doctor)?

    Like I said in a previous post, the weight lifting world is split right now (isolation vs. compound). I can respect the differences of opinion; others may not.

    I am not a PT, but pain in the hands and wrists = needs more forearm isolation exercises doesn't quite right to me.
    THE OP thought you were such a tard he called you out as a Troll .
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhi108 View Post
    Nuke a unborn gay whale for Christ.
    “I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.”
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994
  2. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/02/2008 3:40pm

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     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I can also vouch for the captain of crush grippers. They single-handedly help me put about half an extra inch in my forearms and helped me wean out of straps for doing deadlifts (so, golgo, see? An isolation exercise has its place.)

    From there, it was deadlifts and towel pull ups that helped me develop greater endurance (support grip strength). I did notice after I stopped using the crush grippers that my crush strength deteriorated without significant support strength... go figures.


    golgo: don't be dogmatic... retarded. It is a fact that muscles do not work on isolation. Let's call this statement A. This we know, long before you came to this board.

    But here is where you are fucking up in the logic department. A does not imply or causate that isolation exercises are a waste of time.

    If you were to say isolation exercises are a waste of time whenever someone does them by themselves without combination with other modalities of training THEN you would have a valid argument.

    As it is, the argument you are presenting (either because you are trolling, are mindlessly dogmatic or simply uneducated on the facts), that argument is false.

    Again, if you insist that isolation exercises are a waste, I refer to you to the Westside Barbell guys. If you don't know who these guys are, then stop posting completely on that subject and go google them and what they do on their "maximun/repetion effort" training days.

    Also, check this article written by a strongman (Eric Minor) on the necessity of training the arms (a lot of isolation) in order to perform better in strength (not bodybuilding) events:

    http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...powered_arms_1

    Once you have done those two things (check the Westside Barbell guys and read the article above), then you can come back to let us know about your newly educated (hopefully) opinion of isolation exercises.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  3. Hiro Protagonist is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/02/2008 3:44pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    And now, to conquer my thread back:

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRuss
    This answer is going to be a bit disorganized, but here goes.

    1) For wrist flexion, you can do wrist curls (lots of variations on those) and/or wrist rollers.

    2) Whenever you work flexion, you should balance it with extension work. That means reverse wrist curls (PITA - you have to grip the dumbbell while extending your wrist) and/or reverse wrist rollers.

    3) For what these guys refer to as "ulnar deviation", front and rear levering should do the trick. Start light - it's a lot harder than it looks.

    4) For crush strength, there are grippers - IronMind makes the Captains of Crush line, which are quite good, or you can get the Heavy Grips set for significantly cheaper. I've got some of each. Caution: If you work your finger flexion, you need to work your finger extension as well - I haven't found a good way of doing that yet. Don't much care for the bands.

    Anyways, for more reading, hit up http://www.gripfaq.com/ - they look quite comprehensive and sound.
    Thank you very much! :-)

    Looks exactly what I was looking for.
    Will try to work some of those exercises into my routine these days,
    and then look which suits me best.

    Quote Originally Posted by golgo
    Isolation exercises are a waste of time, unless your goal is body building. Muscles dont act in isolation. If you are lifting for performance, train the way your body works - multiple muscle groups working in conjunction to perform a task. Compound lifts like deadlifts (as are all olympic lifts), pull-ups, etc are great.
    Basically, what the others said. I observe that, especially after the movie 300,
    isolation exercises are regarded as somewhat passées de mode, but all serious weightlifters I know rely a lot on them.


    Quote Originally Posted by BackFistMonkey
    Your monkey , you see .... you should spank it ... alternate in order to avoid deep biological mutations and asymmetrical growth .



    :toothy6::toothy6::toothy6::toothy6::toothy6:
  4. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/02/2008 4:00pm

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     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by golgo
    You make some good points, although I would argue that the OP's original logic on needing forearm exercises was flawed - He has pain from martial arts/fighting and weightlifting, so he is following the advice of a rock climber friend (and not a PT or doctor)?

    He doesn't need to be a doctor to give a good advice, and for the most part that specific advice he gave to the OP (isolate the hand extensors) is correct (more on that later). Also, you are quoting him incompletely. Let me quote him and highlight the key difference which you are missing:

    Quote Originally Posted by This Is Sparta
    When I complained about it to a friend who is a free-climber, he recommended me to
    take some time to train the muscles in my forearms and my hands that are used to stretch the hands. (As opposed to the muscles that are used to close the hands when gripping, which are usually training with all arm exercises.)

    Quote Originally Posted by golgo
    Like I said in a previous post, the weight lifting world is split right now (isolation vs. compound). I can respect the differences of opinion; others may not.
    There is no division for those who excel, for the use all and whatever modalities they need It's only people who are stuck with one modality (or for marketing, dogmatic reasons) that are divided. That world is the one that is divided.

    Quote Originally Posted by golgo
    I am not a PT, but pain in the hands and wrists = needs more forearm isolation exercises doesn't quite right to me.
    Again, you are not quoting what he said. You misread what he wrote and then you are imputing that as his original post. His climber friend correctly suggested him to work his hands extensors as opposed to the flexors (the ones that close the hands). That's physical therapy 101 for those suffering from hand/wrist/forearm pain in general and carpal tunel, tendonitis and epicondilitis in particular.

    I suffer from chronic tendonitis in both hands (plus several fractures and dislocations on my right hand and wrist), and isolation exercises on the finger flexors using rubber bands are what get the **** back to normal (2-3 sets of 20 reps):



    ^^ That's my hand by the way, and this is what I do (an isolation exercise, the same type of hand extensor isolation exercise the climber recommended) for localized, chronic forearm pain.

    Another good counter example of an isolation exercise FOR a weakness or painful condition is the usage of single-leg leg extensions (the top 25%-20% of ROM) to deal with weakened vastus mediales (one of the main causes of blown up knee caps.)

    I have also suffered from different conditions at one point of another (and still do), retroversion on my right shoulder, weakened external rotators and other ****, and for each and every one of them, the prescription has been an isolation exercise.

    Again, isolation exercises have their place, for rehabs, for recovery, for hypertrophy (which some individuals need them) and as compliments to compound movements.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  5. Hiro Protagonist is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/02/2008 4:24pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thank you for pointing that out again, TEM. :)
  6. golgo is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/02/2008 4:35pm

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     Style: No Mas

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Macho,

    You will have to excuse me if I dont respond, to everything you have written, but you seem to keep coming back to the point that isolation exercises are good for hypertrophy, bodybuilding, and rehab/recovery. While I might have overstated my "isolation exercises are a waste of time" comment, but you seem to be making a similar argument to mine.

    A) The OP is not a bodybuilder
    B) The OP does some form of Martial Arts
    C) The OP has pain in his hands and wrists

    I would contend that the first suggestion is that the OP take a week off from training before adding new lifts to his routine. He stated that he had been working extra hard lately. My first thought is that he is overtraining.

    -- edit --

    Macho: I accidentally edited the post when in reality I was trying to reply back.
    Last edited by Teh El Macho; 11/02/2008 6:25pm at .
  7. BackFistMonkey is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/02/2008 4:46pm

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     Style: Recovery-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by golgo
    ...
    will help prevent muscle imbalances that can result from adding random lifts to your routine.
    wait ... what ?

    I always assume people get actual exorcise outside the gym ... especially if you are doing an actual M.A. with hard contact and fully alive resistant training and live a semi active life .

    am I wrong ?

    I mean maybe I just don't understand muscle growth and function ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhi108 View Post
    Nuke a unborn gay whale for Christ.
    “I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.”
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994
  8. golgo is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/02/2008 5:03pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: No Mas

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BackFistMonkey
    wait ... what ?

    I always assume people get actual exorcise outside the gym ... especially if you are doing an actual M.A. with hard contact and fully alive resistant training and live a semi active life .

    am I wrong ?

    I mean maybe I just don't understand muscle growth and function ...
    I am not really sure what your point is here... It depends on what your goals are. Personally I like weightlifting. I am new to MA and weight lifting is still my priority. I also get exercise outside my gym - rock climbing, ma, soccer, etc. Through it all, lifting was my priority.

    Exercise comes in many forms and each has its own benefits.
  9. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/02/2008 5:13pm

    Join us... or die
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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by golgo
    you seem to be making a similar argument to mine.
    Only because you're reading it through a skewed lens.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  10. Southpaw is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/02/2008 5:21pm

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     Style: BJJ, Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To OP:

    It is a little strange that as a WT guy you need advice from strangers on how to build up your forearms.

    Your sifu should be able to point you to dozens of traditional wing chun exercises that will do just that.

    Wrist strength has always been a very important part of wing chun training.
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