Jim Wagner Reality Based Protection Systems

**Rambamatic** · Posted On: 10/29/2008 1:25pm

Jim Wagner was one of the founders of PPCT....Pressure Point Control Tactics. This was one of the first reality based tactical defense approaches used by law enforcement.

I currently train in a system of JuJitsu based self defense that uses much of the PPCT work and the work of Bruce Siddle, Loren Christensen, at al. One of my teachers is a police officer who has been working in these systems for some time.

I have been wanting for a while to go and train with some of the gurus of the RBSD movement, and when I did some research, I found that Wagner would be in NYC for the first week in December of this year.

I signed up for the entire week of classes, which is the base requirement for Level 1 Certification in his system. I should be receiving the book / outline / and class material in the mail any day.

I have not posted numerical reviews because I have not been to the class yet. However, as I get the materials and then as I take the course, I will come back and update the review with numerical values and a full write up of the experience.

I wanted to post this up early so that others could weigh in with their experiences with Mr. Wagner (if there are any) as well as to get some preliminary feedback on questions or ideas tha people might want me to keep an eye out for or might be interested in hearing about.

I will update regularly.

Peace

**TheRuss** · Posted On: 10/29/2008 1:31pm

Would that be the same Jim Wagner as in this thread?

**Rambamatic** · Posted On: 10/29/2008 2:03pm

Originally Posted by TheRuss

Would that be the same Jim Wagner as in this thread?

Yes, it is.

I have read much of the criticism of Jim Wagner, and to tell you the truth, I can't tell who is lying. I have read many of the accusations, as well as Wagner's rebuttals to the accusations, and in general, I find the accusations to be poorly worded and not entirely clear, and his rebuttals to be direct and well written and backed up with evidence.

It seems that one of the main accusations is that he claimed to be a marine sniper, although in all of the things that I have read, he has said over and over again that he was not a marine or a sniper, but that he had specialized training THROUGH their school and that he had done instructional work through them and for them. There's a difference there, and one that I can see some people getting confused over.

The other thing that seems to be more valid is that he padded his resume by putting in SWAT team experience. Once again, I could totally see that as being true, but I can't determine from reading the accusations made and his defenses of himself whether or not he really did do this, or whether it's more of a distinction like the one above.

My take on it is this: I want to go and learn from anyone I can....and if what they teach is good and practical and applicable and I can take valid tools from the experience that enhance my abilities as a martial artist, then I will do that.

I'm not going to get embroiled in the argument of whether or not he's been dishonest in creating his resume. I think that it's probably very highly likely that the truth is somewhere in between: That he has padded his resume in order to market himself, but that others have latched onto other issues that aren't really issues at all. The fact is that I don't know.... but when meet him and speak to him about his CV and experience, I will get more info and be in a better position to make a judgment.

I could go there and find out that he's a liar and what he teaches sucks....it's totally possible. I could go there and find out that despite having padded his resume, his martial arts is really good and I learn a lot from him....I just don't know yet.

The bottom line is that I'm not looking to be his best friend, and I don't really care about what he might or might not have done as far as the controversy goes.....What I care about is whether or not what he teaches is good. If it is, then I learn...if it's not, then you'll hear about it.

I will continue to do research on the subject and will talk with him about it when I meet him. If anyone has any more links to sources of accusations and his explanations, I'd love for you guys to post them so that I can further educate myself and find out what's up.

Thanks

**blisterstarr** · Posted On: 10/29/2008 2:26pm

I think wagner should make it on the bullshido.com "busted".

If what I remember is corect he lied about what he has done in the millitay that public records have proven not to be true.

With that said I encourage people to go (and report back). It makes for a well rounded opinion if you actually meet him, see what he has to teach, and try it. Whether you are for him or against him.

**Rambamatic** · Posted On: 10/29/2008 2:55pm

Originally Posted by blisterstarr

I think wagner should make it on the bullshido.com "busted".

If what I remember is corect he lied about what he has done in the millitay that public records have proven not to be true.

With that said I encourage people to go (and report back). It makes for a well rounded opinion if you actually meet him, see what he has to teach, and try it. Whether you are for him or against him.

That's exactly what I'm going to do. I will also get his side of the story in terms of the accusations.

On his website there is a section about debunking myths about him. From reading some of the material on the web, it seems that several people call him out on claiming to be a marine. Then, Wagner comes back with his response that he never claimed to be a marine, he only claimed to have been through some training WITH them, and having trained some of them. On his website he states that very clearly. From reading some of the people who made the accusations, it seems like for that particular issue, the guys making the accusations are incapable of making that mental distinction. It's like when a lawyer defends a Klansman's right to free speech....some people just can't understand how it would be that the lawyer himself is not a racist; he's just defending their right to speak.....or those who can't understand the distinction between being against the war and supporting the troops. That's what a lot of the "marine issue" seems to be to me....but I'm new to the issue, and just learning.

It does appear to me, however, that he has crafted his CV in such a way as to give the perception that he is more qualified and experienced than he actually is. However, I think that is the nature of creating a resume and marketing yourself....that's just what people do.

Once again, if anyone has any links and or info that you know, please let me know.

Thanks

**Diesel_tke** · Posted On: 10/29/2008 3:43pm

Hey, more power to you. I wish I could go. Good luck, have fun, and I look forward to hearing what it was like.

**Phrost** · Posted On: 10/29/2008 3:48pm

We welcome all sides of an issue and do our best to make sure that they can be presented so that everyone benefits from having all the facts at hand.

**Rambamatic** · Posted On: 10/30/2008 7:29am

Originally Posted by Phrost

We welcome all sides of an issue and do our best to make sure that they can be presented so that everyone benefits from having all the facts at hand.

That's why I post here, and when I come back I will give as complete and as fair an accounting of the experiece and the training that I can.

**gunnerp** · Posted On: 2/28/2011 6:04pm

Wagner,, this guy has some real reality issues. First he is no seargant from the army, that he begged his state officials to let him out of the army after only 8 months, kicked out of the police reserve, kicked out of the marshals service after 8 months, all with fraud and misrepresenting himself. If you give this guy any of your money, your a fool.

**Permalost** · Posted On: 2/28/2011 6:40pm

Originally Posted by Rambamatic

I have read much of the criticism of Jim Wagner, and to tell you the truth, I can't tell who is lying. I have read many of the accusations, as well as Wagner's rebuttals to the accusations, and in general, I find the accusations to be poorly worded and not entirely clear, and his rebuttals to be direct and well written and backed up with evidence.

I found this page to be well researched and quite damning of Jim:

http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php?topic=4049.0;wap2