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  1. GoldenJonas is offline

    Light Heavyweight

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    Jan 2006
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    Posted On:
    6/16/2008 3:50pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MaverickZ
    “In the beginning, a punch is just a punch, a kick is just a kick. In the middle, a punch is not a punch, and a kick is not a kick. In the end, a punch is just a punch, a kick is just a kick.”
    – Bruce Lee

    When you start compartmentalizing every position, every technique, and every movement that you learn you lose the fluidity that is the very nature of jiujitsu.
    My sarcastometer is dead today...was this post for LOLz? Putting a name to common positions you find yourself in, and yes, I have found myself in every single one of the above posted "guards", does not affect the "fluidity that is the nature of jiujitsu." What it does is provide a good concise reference point as a teaching aid to HELP you flow through your options.
  2. Ryno is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    6/16/2008 4:51pm


     Style: FMA, Jujutsu/Judo/SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I get what you guys are going for, and definitely agree that naming something gives people a much quicker frame of reference for the sake of teaching and learning. I guess it's always rubbed me wrong that many grapplers are just focused on these obscure-coolly-named-gimickey postitions, when they don't even have the fundamentals down.

    I mean, it's great to know what an inverted rubber zebra guard is and all, but if you don't understand how to control someones hips, then it doesn't mean a damn thing. Basic principles should come first. Once you've got them down solidly, then you should start worrying about more and advanced and less common positions. There's no point in getting caught up in the named arms-race when you can't even control basic positions.

    And incidentally, you'll probably still used some basic principle to fight your way out of that obscure position.
  3. Angry-Monkey is offline

    Welterweight

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    Posted On:
    6/16/2008 8:50pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ/Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryno
    I get what you guys are going for, and definitely agree that naming something gives people a much quicker frame of reference for the sake of teaching and learning. I guess it's always rubbed me wrong that many grapplers are just focused on these obscure-coolly-named-gimickey postitions, when they don't even have the fundamentals down.

    I mean, it's great to know what an inverted rubber zebra guard is and all, but if you don't understand how to control someones hips, then it doesn't mean a damn thing. Basic principles should come first. Once you've got them down solidly, then you should start worrying about more and advanced and less common positions. There's no point in getting caught up in the named arms-race when you can't even control basic positions.

    And incidentally, you'll probably still used some basic principle to fight your way out of that obscure position.

    so by "many grapplers" you mean white belts?

    any decent grappler will, by definition, have a firm grasp of the fundamental movements and concepts of ground fighting.

    naming positions that people find themselves in creates new references points, promoting further creativity and catalyzing the evolution of the sport while making it easier to teach. It does the opposite of "losing fluidity".
  4. pauli is offline

    i keep tryin to spar, but nothin happens!

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    Posted On:
    6/16/2008 9:23pm

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     Style: karate / bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    closed guard, open guard, half guard, butterfly guard, spider guard. once i've got those down, maybe i'll have some interest in comedy options.

    it's great that there are people out there researching and experimenting with wacky stuff, that's what evolves the sport... but i've got enough on my plate with the basics.
  5. 1point2 is online now
    1point2's Avatar

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    Posted On:
    6/16/2008 10:38pm

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     Style: 剛 and 柔

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I personally like that OTHER people have categorized--and more importantly, gotten unreasonably good at--a large number of obscure guards. It's an aspect of "game" that I'm glad exists, because I can use it for reference.

    But for my own training and teaching, I just say "open", "half", or "closed" and work the variations within those. [Grain of salt = style field.]

    When I saw this thread I was hoping for more of the conceptual stuff--sort of like "isolate, control the hips, make or take space", but with more explanation. I see a lot of single techniques out there, and a lot of HUGE depth into, say, Marcelo's X-guard, but what I feel I need is a semi-extended treatise on general sweeping tactics.

    Sidebar: I mean tactics, not strategy. Tricks, methods, setups, and "keep this in mind" ideas, with whys and hows. Anybody have a resource for this? Am I off topic...?
  6. MaverickZ is offline

    Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    6/16/2008 11:24pm

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     Style: white boy jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Angry-Monkey
    so by "many grapplers" you mean white belts?

    any decent grappler will, by definition, have a firm grasp of the fundamental movements and concepts of ground fighting.

    naming positions that people find themselves in creates new references points, promoting further creativity and catalyzing the evolution of the sport while making it easier to teach. It does the opposite of "losing fluidity".
    Having a name for every variation of the position of your legs leads to techniques being the focus of your game, rather than the principles. And it's having a good grasp of the principles that leads to good jiujitsu, not knowing a billion different positions. And I would argue that having a list of minutely different positions to memorize makes learning and teaching jiujitsu more difficult rather than easier.

    I'm all for the further development and exploration of the grappling game. I do it on a regular basis. But these various positions should not be specific individually named positions. A grappler needs to understand the principles of opponent control. What ends up happening is that a grappler will then have an infinite number of "guards". Because he may find himself in an infinite number of different situations. Then he will not be limited by "Ok, this is the guard I need to hold in this situation."

    And while I do understand the idea of statistically likely positions, I don't think this warrants 50 different named guards.
    Last edited by MaverickZ; 6/16/2008 11:30pm at .
  7. Ryno is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/17/2008 12:41am


     Style: FMA, Jujutsu/Judo/SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by pauli
    closed guard, open guard, half guard, butterfly guard, spider guard. once i've got those down, maybe i'll have some interest in comedy options.

    it's great that there are people out there researching and experimenting with wacky stuff, that's what evolves the sport... but i've got enough on my plate with the basics.
    That is exactly what I was trying to say. And much more concisely. Thank you pauli.

    I just feel that some things are over-named. Every slight difference in foot position warrants a new name, when the attack options are just the same. It's gotten out of control. People who do something slightly different slap a new name on things to try to get their name enshrined in the BJJ dictionary. It makes sense to a certain extent, but at a certain point it just starts becoming comedy, as pauli points out. I firmly believe that we have crossed the comedy barrier.

    I mean it just seems like I'm seeing "new" guard positions pop up every six months, even though I've done them before. ****! If only I had named that **** last year! I'd be famous! Nevermind the fact that I only got into that position by goofing of with some noob who I could have submitted in a basic position.
  8. PointyShinyBurn is offline
    PointyShinyBurn's Avatar

    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    6/17/2008 5:08am

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by pauli
    closed guard, open guard, half guard, butterfly guard, spider guard. once i've got those down, maybe i'll have some interest in comedy options.
    I basically don't play spider guard, if someone stands in my open guard I go DLR or single leg/'koala' guard. Does this mean I've got weak basics? Is spider guard a more or less comedy option than that? Why?

    If the basics are the positions you can't avoid then we should all learn half-guard first...
    Quote Originally Posted by pauli
    it's great that there are people out there researching and experimenting with wacky stuff, that's what evolves the sport... but i've got enough on my plate with the basics.
    Aren't the basic principles available from any position? Is butterfly guard more 'basic' than rubber guard or just more common?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryno
    I mean it just seems like I'm seeing "new" guard positions pop up every six months, even though I've done them before. ****! If only I had named that **** last year! I'd be famous! Nevermind the fact that I only got into that position by goofing of with some noob who I could have submitted in a basic position.
    Maybe people are just naming them so they can discuss them more easily? Maybe that's why most of them are named descriptively rather than after their 'inventor'...
  9. Angry-Monkey is offline

    Welterweight

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    Posted On:
    6/17/2008 7:58am

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     Style: BJJ/Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MaverickZ
    Having a name for every variation of the position of your legs leads to techniques being the focus of your game, rather than the principles. And it's having a good grasp of the principles that leads to good jiujitsu, not knowing a billion different positions. And I would argue that having a list of minutely different positions to memorize makes learning and teaching jiujitsu more difficult rather than easier.

    I'm all for the further development and exploration of the grappling game. I do it on a regular basis. But these various positions should not be specific individually named positions. A grappler needs to understand the principles of opponent control. What ends up happening is that a grappler will then have an infinite number of "guards". Because he may find himself in an infinite number of different situations. Then he will not be limited by "Ok, this is the guard I need to hold in this situation."

    And while I do understand the idea of statistically likely positions, I don't think this warrants 50 different named guards.

    I can understand where you're coming from if a beginner is concerned with learning the names of every position they might find themselves in by accident, it will confuse them and probably wont help them much.

    All these arguments I'm hearing in this thread are (or should be) a non-issue with people that actually know how to grapple.

    When I roll I don't think about the name of every position I'm in, I flow and don't really think too much at all.

    But for learning purposes I really don't see why you're so opposed to naming a position from which there is a wealth of possibilities. There are entire games based upon positions like the cross guard, x-guard, upside down guard, etc... For your own use fine, you may not need names for things but then what happens if you're trying to pass on that knowledge?
  10. GoldenJonas is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/18/2008 11:00am

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Angry-Monkey
    All these arguments I'm hearing in this thread are (or should be) a non-issue with people that actually know how to grapple.
    Which is why I put it in DHS and NOT Guantanamo.
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