Posted On:8/19/2002 12:46pm
First of all I dont believe you that you've destroyed wrestlers. Your full of shiit.
And second, EVERYONE knows that San Shou is NOT KUNG FU! EVERYONE! Its Muay Thai kickboxing with a sidekick and some wrestling. Try and convince me otherwise. Hell, try and convince Cung Le otherwise, at least HE admits it.
"Migo is such a nerdy, panzy ass, ****** mutherfukker." -Every member of the ADCC Forum(at one time or another).
HAHA I soo agree with that.. just like Kyokoshin (I think thats how you spell it..) Karate is Muay Thai with a snap... haha..
Posted On:8/19/2002 2:17pm
I don't fully agree with that.. you say that those styles of kung fu are deadly and what not.. and there's no rules and blah blah blah.. but how can someone EFFECTIVELY practice this art without seriously damaging his sparring partner??.. he's going to fake the moves?? or just stop 2 inches for his face? in essence, so REALLY what he IS trained for is to fake moves and stop punches 2 inches from someone face.. who's a willing participant..
You may or may not have a point there, but I Know I don't have to spin someone's wrist off to know a bit more intent on my part would seriously dammage it, smae with droppng my weight down as hard as I can on someone's neck. Intent is adjustable, accracy is not.
The differnce is in destructive intent. If "I" WANT to really hurt you, all I have to do is lay out more force. I' use BJJ as an exapmle. Those guys use quite a bit of Chi Na in their art. are you telling me they can't be much more destructive if they wanted to?? Instead of a mear submission they can't sprain an elbow with an armbar? Or even dislocate it if they wanted to?? I think you'd be a damm fool to think they can't.
So, why can't I do the same thing?? The training methods are the same, we both have to pull alot of techniques for safety. There is no differance.
The answer has more to do with the predujdice against traditional art caused by a WIDE spread complete incompetancy in it's teachings.
REAL Traditional arts ARE much the same as today's MMA's only with some really old and different looking exercises added in.
Lineage means nothing today anymore it's gotten so bad. I personally know a specific master that was taught one art, advertises it, sells it, and then teaches a comPLETEly different style in it's place solely because it's easier for the students to learn.
And from what I'm seeing her, the problem is more wide spread then even that. just in the last few days I'm seeing guiys who were taught what is suposedly traditinal methods, but thier understanding and comprehension of them is like out of the twilight zone or something.
Take the whole board breakig thing, whenthe hell did THAT become the goal of martial arts?? since when doe a board hit back??
That kind of stuff was done occasionally if at all, just to test the progress of Iron body training, NOT as the main goal of the practice.
I don't know, but the coolness factor of breaking things must be a BIG seller. I can see no other eason why that is such a widley sought after skill, or even how it applies to fighting, other than to test how hard your hand is. Contantly doing that stuf messes up your hand bigtime and is just stupid.
Posted On:8/19/2002 3:57pm
Intent and accuracy on a willing partner doesn't matter, but when you're fighting someone who knows what their doing and who isn't just going to stand there while you grab his wrist and jump in the air to land your knee in his chest.. I'm sure its a little more difficult.. Who said anything about board or brick breaking?!??! I'm talking about practical sparring.. I know there's different degrees of sparring.. and if you can't turn it up a notch once in a while and really lay it thick, then you'll never really know if what you're doing is right.. There's alot of different factors when extreme force is applied..
You can't compare holding back in striking with holding back in grappling.. when you hold back with striking.. or stop 2 inches short, the move in essence, isn't completed.. in grappling, once you have the armbar in, the move is completed.. In striking it's hard to fully complete an action without full-contact.. and if you can't fully complete the actions then how do you know if they really work effectively?.. And saying that your strikes and moves are deadly, how can you train safely but effectively??..
Posted On:8/19/2002 5:51pm
Intent and accuracy on a willing partner doesn't matter, but when you're fighting someone who knows what their doing and who isn't just going to stand there while you grab his wrist and jump in the air to land your knee in his chest.. I'm sure its a little more difficult..
Yes, this is true, that's why REAL tradtional schools practice fighting against resisting and COMPETITIVE opponents.
&gt;&gt;Who said anything about board or brick breaking?!??!
Someone up there did, I think it was PeeDee
&gt;&gt;I'm talking about practical sparring.. I know there's different degrees of sparring.. and if you can't turn it up a notch once in a while and really lay it thick, then you'll never really know if what you're doing is right.. There's alot of different factors when extreme force is applied..
You can't compare holding back in striking with holding back in grappling.. when you hold back with striking.. or stop 2 inches short, the move in essence, isn't completed..
WRONG, you train with fingerless grappleing gloves, so you CAN hit with power, and still work your Chi Na's in too. Infact it is very important that you DO do this, as much of Kung Fu is Kick, Punch, Chi na, Throw, often in that order, but not nessasarily. You may applie the Chin Na with less force so as not to dammge the joint, but you can stll get it in as a pain compliance technique just like and other grappeling. And the pads will lessen the punches enough to prevent any serious dammage. Head gear helps with palm strikes to the head as the palms ar not covered with the gloves. Palms to the body just hurt alot and you have to deal with it. Iron body training is the right way to deal with that, IF you have the time.
&gt;&gt;in grappling, once you have the armbar in, the move is completed.. In striking it's hard to fully complete an action without full-contact.. and if you can't fully complete the actions then how do you know if they really work effectively?.. And saying that your strikes and moves are deadly, how can you train safely but effectively??..
Most of it can be trained saftly by holding back, the same way you hold back with your arm bar and go for a submission rather than sprain the opponents elbows. Applie it enough to make your opponent tap, not enough to really injure them. It's the same stuff the MMA guys do. I bet many of the same techniques come up as well (Arm bar comes to mind)
It's like this, I have two throws that land a guy either face down, or face up and it is such that the knee is primed to come down right on the neck. Now, if I just flow with it, my knee comes crashing down full body wieght and will probually do a good amount of dammage, if not kill him. it's common sense. If you hit Glass with a hammer, it will break. You don't need to actually do this to know it will happen.
Now, to protect my partner, I slow it down enough to contact the neck, but not with any real impact. Apon contact, I slowly lean the pressure on till he taps. It's called a kneeling sleeper (sometimes a "cage"), and the effect is the same as a wrestlers sleeper hold only your not as commited to your position and can easily escape if his buddies come into play. BOTH can kill as I'm sure you can see. That is why care is taken with sleeper holds in general regaurdless of where they came from.
Posted On:8/19/2002 7:51pm
let me put it this way.. do you think you'd be able to pull this maneuver of yours on someone like roy jones jr.? do you think ANY martial artis master would be able to pull that sort of a move on him?? if what you say is true.. and he's simply a "glass" and you're the hammer.. do you actually think that all that you'd be able to pull of a complicated move such as that on a professional boxer?? if you say yes.. please let me know how you plan on doing it.. really.. I think a pro boxer would kill most if not all the martial arts "masters".. they don't waste any motion with their punches.. deadly accurate.. and very powerful.. tell me if you can catch a punch as fast as a boxers punch, twist his wrist.. throw him. and then land a knee on the back of his neck..
Posted On:8/19/2002 10:01pm
I doubt it, I'm not anywhere near the Pro level. I'd bet there isn't much YOU could pull offf against a pro either, Kung Fu or MMA. If I fought someone at my level, reguardless of art, I probually could. It happens to be one of my favorite moves and it comes quite natural to me.
I would actually like to try to develop it as a takedown defence. I think it has some possbilities, but I don't have any good BJJ guys close to me to roll with at the moment.
See, the problem here is you are trying to pit my skills against your top level professional heros, when you know damm well the average martial artist or even an above average martial artist, including MMA's, would never be able to pull much of anything off against those guys.
Now, if I taught the technique to a top level professional fighter, i'm sure that inside of a week he could take it in the ring and get it to work quite well. Even if he just used it as a sleeper move. (any rules against slamming knees into necks wile your opponent is face down on the ground out there in MMA land??)
As far as Master's go, most are past thier prime, and really can't fight at the pro level any more than a comperable MMA coach of the same age and experiance could last a single round against thier top level fighters. You don't think "Old Man" Gracie is going to be able to hold his own against any of his sons do you??. Of course not, he's an old man now. But it's because of him that his sons can do what they can do. Chinese martial arts masters are no different. Maybe as old men that can still out fight a normal person, but never a top level "in his prime" professional. And niether can 90% of all MMA fighters. In fact, maybe if your really lucky, 5% of all MMA fighters can hold thier own or maybe even beat the top level professionals.
I could teach a beginner all my best moves, and he'd have no hope of getting them to work on me, because I'm that far ahead of them in skill level.
I could teach them to the Master's top students, and they would flaten me with my own material.
It's not always the technique, it's the man, his skill level, how well he trains VS the other man, his skill level and how well he trains.
Tring to compare me to a top level professional fighter is rediculous. I'm sure I could coach them to new levels, but out fight them, no, not with out about 18 months of intense preperation at least. The rest would be riding on who has the most raw talent and experiance. I would be just a medicore guy going up against natural born matial prodigys (or roid freaks). I don'think the raw talent is there, in me or 95% of the rest of the martial world. I'm sure you would never make it that far either.
Posted On:8/20/2002 3:16pm
how about a kung fu master (still in his prime) do you think he'd be able to pull that maneuver off on a professional boxer?
Posted On:8/20/2002 4:15pm
Absolutely. It's based of very simple side stepping footwrok, and the arm snakes around the gaurd. A doubt a boxer, or kick boxer would even see it comming.
A grappler is in a better position to defend against it because they are used to people putting thier hands on them. Still, I don't see to may ring figters practing defences against being thrown by the face.
The once the throw is in play, you almost have to crash down on thier necks with your knee to keep your balance. Sometimes you land on thier shoulder, but you still have them under control quite well. If you do do that, and miss the neck, a good ground figter will get out of it and quite possilbly turn the tables on yoou, but if you lock it in (and it's hard not to), they are going to have to tapout, or passout.
It's kind of hard top describe the throw, but if you lay a partner down face up practice kneeling on thier necks and have them fight to get out of it. Force them to either escape, tap or pass out. If you are a good BJJ guy, you "Should" have some sort of throw or takedown that will put you in a position to apply the kneeling sleeper. The throw I use is not the only way to get it in, it just happpens to line you up well for it that's all.
I'm not sure how I would get the throw in on agrappler as I don't have one of significant skill to play with, and it's really desgined to take a striker to the ground. If a good Bjj guy used the trow, he could also launch into quite a bit of his arsenal from it I'm sure. I see the potential to slide sidways into a knee on stomach mount quite easly and the ability to go for an armbar is also right there for you.
Edited by - Royal Dragon on August 20 2002 16:19:36
Posted On:8/30/2002 1:22pm
i dont see any of your defences working aganst my .40 cal. glock.
Posted On:8/30/2002 2:05pm
I don't see your .40 doing JACK against my AR-15
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