Teaching Ne-Waza in Judo vs. in BJJ

**100xobm** · Posted On: 10/11/2008 7:24pm

Given that BJJ's ground game is better than Judo's (I know it's debatable for some, but assume it's true), I was wondering what makes it superior (apart from the different focuses on takedowns vs ne waza). I remember reading that the way that the gracies etc. teach it is different and has been 'scienced up' relative to judo.

I've been thinking about this recently, because (and this isn't meant to be a powerwank about why I'm great) I can out ne waza anyone below a brown belt in my class (I'm only orange). And I think that's because, largely, I watched shitloads of youtube and 'studied', and everyone (below brown) all seem to only know the armbar, the RNC and clock/collar chokes. and no one even tries sangaku jime, or even the kimura.

So what is it that Bjjers do that we don't? Is it drills? are the moves broken down more? The lack of quality ne waza in judo (relatively speaking) seems to stick out all over the place where I live.

I'm asking because I'm considering doing some BJJ to round out the gap, but it's real expensive comparatively.

**ojgsxr6** · Posted On: 10/11/2008 8:30pm

BJJ'ers tend to do a lot of positional sparring (ie startiing from guard, mount, etc). And in BJJ there are less restrictions on submissions and how they can be applied. (ie in Judo while doing a rnc you cannot grab or touch the muzzle of the face, some refs may only allow the ude garami that attacks the elbow and not the shoulder)

**3moose1** · Posted On: 10/11/2008 11:18pm

Bjj is better on the ground, in the same way Judo is better standing

(ne and tachi waza, if i'm not mistaken, which i probably am)

the lack of quality ne-waza comes from everyone learning "competition" judo, which is heavy on the standing, and lacking on the submissions. You basically have 10 seconds (from what i've heard) to get the submission, so instead of wasting energy, you just stall.

That being said, i can name Judoka right now that will school most BJJers.

**Kentucky Fried Chokin** · Posted On: 10/11/2008 11:24pm

Originally Posted by 3moose1

Bjj is better on the ground, in the same way Judo is better standing

(ne and tachi waza, if i'm not mistaken, which i probably am)

the lack of quality ne-waza comes from everyone learning "competition" judo, which is heavy on the standing, and lacking on the submissions. You basically have 10 seconds (from what i've heard) to get the submission, so instead of wasting energy, you just stall.

That being said, i can name Judoka right now that will school most BJJers.

That tells him nothing about how ground work is taught differently in Judo vs BJJ. The truth is, I doubt that it is taught differently. Like Moose said, there;s just a lot more of it.

**3moose1** · Posted On: 10/11/2008 11:29pm

Originally Posted by Razamataz

That tells him nothing about how ground work is taught differently in Judo vs BJJ. The truth is, I doubt that it is taught differently. Like Moose said, there;s just a lot more of it.

Well, one being taught all the time, and one being taught barely any of the time is certainly a difference.

With a few word changes, this thread could be about the difference in teaching throwing/takedowns in bjj as opposed to judo.

**aaaargh** · Posted On: 10/12/2008 12:48am

There are plenty of differences. For the record I love judo and I don't mean this to be critical, just descriptive. Just off the top of my head:

- The intensity in judo newaza is much higher, since there's less concern for pacing yourself, given the short time limit.

- Because you can win by pinning your opponent in judo, but not BJJ, BJJers who are tightly pinned will often just wait for their opponent to try something and give an opening.

- Because of the point system, BJJers will change positions a lot and work for mount; whereas a judoka would be stupid to give up a winning kesa gatame or kata gatame.

- Knee-on-belly isn't a pin in judo, so it's not used (at least, I never saw it).

- Wristlocks, leglocks.

**Meok** · Posted On: 10/12/2008 1:58am

Newaza randori between Judo and BJJ isn't too different, particularly considering that in newaza randori there often isn't a stand up time limit. A big difference is the focus on the pin, which leads to other differences.

To add to aaaargh:

-Judo encourages turtling and even laying flat on your stomach. This is because the pin is an immediate win, escapable by stalling in the turtle or flat stomach positions. BJJ discourages this by giving positional points to back mount and allowing extended time to crack defences.

-On the over hand Judo encourages turn overs, getting someone from the turtle or flat stomach position onto their back. Turn overs aren't so attractive in BJJ where getting back mount is better.

-Judo discourages submissions from a tight pin. Particulary submissions that give up position like an armbar from mount. Why risk a winning pin? In BJJ you can't win immediately from a good pin so taking a submission from there isn't foolish. Of course that doesn't mean people with a score lead won't stall in a dominant position, though in practice stalling isn't very attractive.

-Judo's focus on the pin means a pin worth is determined more so by the control afforded rather than the submissions available. BJJ is the reverse. You can say the heirachy of pins are different.

As for the sankaku shime and ude garami (kimura) I don't see why Judoka wouldn't know them. They are pretty basic bread and butter techniques.

**maxthegeek1** · Posted On: 10/12/2008 2:29am

Originally Posted by 100xobm

I've been thinking about this recently, because (and this isn't meant to be a powerwank about why I'm great) I can out ne waza anyone below a brown belt in my class (I'm only orange). And I think that's because, largely, I watched shitloads of youtube and 'studied', and everyone (below brown) all seem to only know the armbar, the RNC and clock/collar chokes. and no one even tries sangaku jime, or even the kimura.

Even though all the submissions are technically there in judo, not as many people bother to learn them. For example, if you were the equivalent rank in bjj, you would already have a much more extensive knowledge of submissions (or you should).