Belief in belief.

[Virus]

Do people really believe in god? Or do they merely think that expressing belief is a desirable trait? The term "belief in belief" (BIB) was coined by Daniel Dennet, who suggested that that actions of believers don't really bear out what you would expect of someone who took what they claim to believe seriously. If god existed, as the theists themselves put forward, shouldn't every waking moment be devoted to making sure you get into heaven? Shouldn't they be constantly putting pressure on people who disbelieve to save their souls? Shouldn't they be making preparations for the second coming? Shouldn't they be throwing parties instead of mourning for dead people that have moved on to the best thing possible? Dennet postulated that people don't really believe in God, but they think that the profession of faith is desirable. Look at the American presidential "debates". To get up and say you go to church every Sunday and pray before every meal will get you sympathetic nods and sighs from the audience. If a candidate got up and said he observes the rituals of Baal, or holds nightly corroborates of the Australian Aborigines he would be considered a lunatic and hounded off the platform.

Ask a moderate why he or she believes in god and they probably won't talk about fulfilled prophecies in the bible or how the bible contains knowledge that could only have been revealed by an omniscient being. Moderates don't talk about "facts" (as they see them) but consequences supporting belief. They talk about how belief gives them comfort, a sense of purpose or how it's good for society. Intellectually, these are bankrupt notions as they have nothing to do with whether the belief is true. It really is juvenile to think that the universe somehow owes you comfort. But if someone "believes in belief" the truth of the matter is irrelevant.

There are several problems with BIB. Firstly, which beliefs are good to believe in? If you think that BIB can bypass space wizard analogies, I'm afraid you are wrong. Is it good to believe in the belief of the Magic Space Wizard? If your answer is no, then ask yourself why the same standard doesn't apply to the judaic-christian-islamic-whatever fairy take you think is so good for people.

Is it OK to BIB of the bloodthirsty Allah of the Koran? If we were to say that only the beliefs that conform to a civilized conception of modern morality then we already posses a standard by which we judge morality, therefore we don't need BIB.

Another problem with BIB is that right here and now, there are millions of people who really do believe they are watched over by celestial magic-users. They really do believe they keep a magic book by their bedside. The hijackers who attacked the WTC serve as an example. Why would a group of well-off, college educated guys with Phds decide to end their lives and take the lives of thousands in the process? It's likely that religion wasn't the only force of inspiration. It may be that they had grievances with American foreign policy in the Middle East. But does it help that they believe that they will be earning a one-way ticket to a paradise of their own harem of sex-slaves and an open bar? (and presumably a new brain that doesn't get bored of drinking, fucking and sucking after 1000 years.) So I don't think BIB accounts for all religious people.

BIB also demands lying to ourselves and hypocrisy. How are we to go about encouraging BIB? Do we raise children (and when I say "we" I mean "you" 'cos I'm not raising the little fuckers.) to not really believe in a celestial space wizard but to act as though it's true? How can you even deliberately convince yourself that something is true when you know that it isn't? As a rationalist and skeptic, I can't imagine what it's like to have one half your brain lie to the other half. Who are we going to promote BIB to? Obviously not everyone needs BIB, so do we consciously separate the world into simple folk that need their space wizard and the enlightened folk that know it's a beneficial myth for them?

Is it really true that god-myths are beneficial for society? One study found that England has less than half of its population believing in god. That's the lowest I've ever seen in any study. Proving that religion is useful for society would have to demonstrate that England is more morally corrupt than pious nations. America is 98% pro-wizard and has a much higher murder and rape rate. (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/html/cjusew96/crpr.htm)

Finally, I think truth should matter. We need to face the universe as it actually is not invent space wizards to make us feel comfortable. You're going to die. Deal with it. The universe is radiation-filled vacuum that doesn't care for you. Deal with it. We don't need myths to live a fulfilling life. Pursue what pleases you. Learn, develop new skills, contribute to society, think for yourself. There's more to life than just space wizards and fairy tales. Everyone acknowledges that things are better now that we don't believe in burning heretics and stoning adulterers. Everyone knows that we are better off having pushed our god into the margins of the unknown. So why not take it one step further and get rid of the myth altogether?

[han090]

I also thought a party was a more appropriate way to treat someone going to heaven too.But then again, that's most of what the old Irish tradition of a "wake" is. (well, that and celebrating their life, but given the strong catholic presence, i'd say more the first)

Besides, mourning at a funeral is more about the people who are still around being sad that the person they love isn't there with them any more. If your best friend moves to another country, you'll stilll miss them, and be sad.

Good enough arguement none the less.

[Diesel_tke]

If god existed, as the theists themselves put forward, shouldn't every waking moment be devoted to making sure you get into heaven? Shouldn't they be constantly putting pressure on people who disbelieve to save their souls? Shouldn't they be making preparations for the second coming?

Man you nonbelievers are ridiculous. One minute you call us bible thumpers because we preach what we believe in. Now your saying that if we belive we should be preaching more and telling more people.

Well, the main problem with your argument is that your laws are slowly preventing us from doing that. The law states that my rights end where your rights begin. So I try to respect you by not aproaching you in public and confronting you for your beliefs. Besides the fact that your beliefs are between you and God. None of my buisness.

It would be pretty judgemental of me to walk up to you and go ahead and say, you are going to Hell. I don't know that for a fact so I leave it alone. However, there are people I know that still do it.

Which would you rather have? Seems like you are bitching just to bitch.

I do notice that a lot of nonbelievers spend a lot of time complaining that we believe in what we do. Why are you sweating us so bad?

[Diesel_tke]

Ask a moderate why he or she believes in god and they probably won't talk about fulfilled prophecies in the bible or how the bible contains knowledge that could only have been revealed by an omniscient being. Moderates don't talk about "facts" (as they see them) but consequences supporting belief. They talk about how belief gives them comfort, a sense of purpose or how it's good for society. Intellectually, these are bankrupt notions as they have nothing to do with whether the belief is true. It really is juvenile to think that the universe somehow owes you comfort. But if someone "believes in belief" the truth of the matter is irrelevant.

Actually there are a lot of people now days talking about fulfillment of prophecies. Dr. David Jeremiah and Dr. Hagge(sp). They have been devoting a lot of their time lately to explaining how the events today, directly fall into prophecy. I personally have read both of their books and I chose to believe.

Also I would say that our beliefs do give me comfort. If I chose to not believe then this would be a pretty depressing life and existence. I find it easier to believe in God and specifically Jesus, then the assumption that when I die I just float off into oblivion.
The belief that when you die you just stop. That is asinine to me.

[han090]

Man you nonbelievers are ridiculous. One minute you call us bible thumpers because we preach what we believe in. Now your saying that if we belive we should be preaching more and telling more people.

Well, the main problem with your argument is that your laws are slowly preventing us from doing that. The law states that my rights end where your rights begin. So I try to respect you by not aproaching you in public and confronting you for your beliefs. Besides the fact that your beliefs are between you and God. None of my buisness.

It would be pretty judgemental of me to walk up to you and go ahead and say, you are going to Hell. I don't know that for a fact so I leave it alone. However, there are people I know that still do it.

I do notice that a lot of nonbelievers spend a lot of time complaining that we believe in what we do. Why are you sweating us so bad?

This website spends a lot of time complaining that people believe in "t3h d3adly". I wouldn't exactly say they're "sweating" the people who have martial arts all wrong.

While religion does try and get you to "convert the unbeliever" today's society has made it pretty unacceptable to do so, so I don't think it's crazy that religious people ignore the hellbound, and focus on living their own lives the right way to rack up those holy points.

Actually there are a lot of people now days talking about fulfillment of prophecies. Dr. David Jeremiah and Dr. Hagge(sp). They have been devoting a lot of their time lately to explaining how the events today, directly fall into prophecy. I personally have read both of their books and I chose to believe.

Also I would say that our beliefs do give me comfort. If I chose to not believe then this would be a pretty depressing life and existence. I find it easier to believe in God and specifically Jesus, then the assumption that when I die I just float off into oblivion.
The belief that when you die you just stop. That is asinine to me.

I think this sort of lends creedence to his arguement, you're believing not because you actually think it's true, but because you feel happier denying the less pleasant "reality".

I personally amn't sure one way or the other. (i'm one of those assholes)

[grizzly.ed]

Basically society needed god and if he didnt exist it would be necessary to invent him, to establish societys morals and teach people what is right and what is wrong. but since we already have those morals, belief in god is no longer needed
this is how i understand it

nowadays religion only breeds ignorance and narrow minded people.
eg my 17 year old religious friend asking me what a lap dance was a few weeks ago, because "his parents never told him and neither did his priest so how could he know"

so how can we ever develop if we have the same outlook on life for the past few centuries?

[Virus]

Man you nonbelievers are ridiculous. One minute you call us bible thumpers because we preach what we believe in. Now your saying that if we belive we should be preaching more and telling more people.

The paragraph you refer to is intended to demonstrate that perhaps those who profess faith do not really believe it as much as they say. It has nothing to do with what people should or shouldn't do.

Well, the main problem with your argument is that your laws are slowly preventing us from doing that. The law states that my rights end where your rights begin. So I try to respect you by not aproaching you in public and confronting you for your beliefs. Besides the fact that your beliefs are between you and God. None of my buisness.

I don't know what laws you are talking about. I wasn't aware there were laws against religious prosethylisation in your country, I highly doubt there are given how easy it is to find someone in the mass-media promoting religion.

It would be pretty judgemental of me to walk up to you and go ahead and say, you are going to Hell. I don't know that for a fact so I leave it alone. However, there are people I know that still do it.

Yeah, that would be douchy. Funnily enough I don't do the same to believers. I don't actually launch into Space Wizard analogies if I see someone wearing a cross. My philosophy is "Don't start the argument, but finish it.". If a believer makes an assertion to me that something is true, I feel obliged criticize it. I don't consider criticism through books, lectures, the internet ect and requiring this sort of invitation.

Which would you rather have? Seems like you are bitching just to bitch.

Nah.

I do notice that a lot of nonbelievers spend a lot of time complaining that we believe in what we do. Why are you sweating us so bad?

• Because the claims of religion aren't true.
  
• Religious people indoctrinate and label children as members of their own religion, even though children are too young to know what they are being labeled as.
  
• Faiths contain contingent beliefs that shape voting patterns and opinions on issues like stem cell research, abortion ect.
  
• We need to look at the world realistically to both appreciate it and be able to solve it's problems.
  
• Spread of bigotry.
  
• Violence in the name of religion. Not all violence is caused solely by religion but having absolute faith that your conflict has a cosmic significance doesn't help.

[Virus]

Actually there are a lot of people now days talking about fulfillment of prophecies. Dr. David Jeremiah and Dr. Hagge(sp). They have been devoting a lot of their time lately to explaining how the events today, directly fall into prophecy. I personally have read both of their books and I chose to believe.

I think you've missed the point of the article. What it is saying is that some moderates do not care whether their beliefs are true or not, but whether they are good for people. That is, they "believe in belief". The article criticizes this outlook.

Also I would say that our beliefs do give me comfort. If I chose to not believe then this would be a pretty depressing life and existence.

I know they do. What I'm saying is;

a) Comfort does not equal true. This is a bankrupt argument.
b) You don't need fairy tales to be content with life.
c) It's juvenile to think you are owed ulterior purpose and comfort by existence.

I find it easier to believe in God and specifically Jesus, then the assumption that when I die I just float off into oblivion.
The belief that when you die you just stop. That is asinine to me.

It's not asinine, it's the default position. Do you believe you come back as an insect? Do you believe you go to Valhalla? Do you believe you go to a TV studio to talk to John Edwards? Believers reject all other possible afterlives except the one they happen to be brought up to believe, despite each of them being no more likely to be true. Atheists just go one step further and reject them all. We know that the physical universe exists. it's asinine go beyond that and assume ghosts and souls and spirits and space wizards when there is no evidence for any of them.

[danno]

just for giggles, virus, i'm going to debate against you. even though i'm an atheist.

"benefits" of religion:

(don't think i've ever seen bullet points used in a post before! might try it myself.)

1. sometimes we have to do things that we find morally reprehensible. for example, it's difficult to kill another human being, even if it is for the sake of your own survival. religion can make that sooooo much easier.
   
   
2. the world is a complicated place. religion answers all your existential questions in a very simple, fast way. this helps you stop worrying about **** and allows you to get on with the important stuff - fighting and reproduction. and if you don't reproduce, you fail at evolution. remember virus, you're not planning to reproduce, so you've just become a victim of natural selection. the catholics have been selected over you.
   
   
3. if you're a total bastard, perhaps nothing will make you become a better person apart from the threat of eternal damnation. if you truly believe in god/heaven/hell then there's a small chance you might just behave yourself.
   
   
4. religion can effortlessly, powerfully change gears between the points above. when we need to reproduce, fight, control ourselves, find the meaning of life, religion is the gum that fills every crack and stops all the leaks, allowing humans to get on with their lives.

what say you, my good man?

[han090]

I don't consider criticism through books, lectures, the internet ect and requiring this sort of invitation.

Hate to be a spelling nazi, but the abbreviation of etcetera is etc not ect. It also bothers me when people pronounce this wrong (ec cetera rather than et cetera), and spelling it wrong is the root of that. Pet peeve.