Posted On:10/08/2008 12:17pm
I was originally going to go off on Kempo, Shaolin Kempo or Villari Kempo, but I decided not to bash my parent system that has received many a deservid beating on this web site. Any ways, over the past few years my instructor has incorporated a lot of submission grappling into our standard jujitsu cirriculum and we have concentrated on standard standup fighting and grappling tecniques. We became a PIT affiliate and our cirriculum is about 50% standup and grappling plus a lot of conditioning. A lot of MMA stuff since Hackleman the founder of Hawaiian Kempo and THE PIT is also an MMA coach and more.
My question, has anyone elso abandoned there traditional kempo system for something else?
Posted On:11/08/2008 1:13am
Style: Kempo, Kyokushin n00b
Hahaha I won't lie sometimes I wish I could. I think training in an MMA type style creates more well rounded fighters (I speak here from observation, not experience). I don't know if I'll ever make the commitment to teaching martial arts someday. I would love to eventually. But I have a TON of work I feel I need to do with my own technique, style, conditioning, etc. before I would ever teach in a dojo of my own.
I admire the fact that people like you and my Instructor (he's not going as far as the MMA and ground stuff, but he's trying to bring the harder hitting Hawaiian roots back in and doesn't believe in keeping a private curriculum that you only get to learn if you pay for) are trying to do something different and bring SKK towards being an effective art, but I hate that the second somebody mentions SKK we get laughed out of the room because of "GM" Villari and his franchise. Nick Cerio may have said that he was one of his greatest blackbelts, but when I look at a lot of the things he added to what was otherwise a basic and reasonable system (IMO, I wasn't around back then) it looks downright ridiculous. Not to mention GM Villari has some of the most outrageously over pimped out gis I've ever seen. Why the need for such excessive flashiness?
If I had a choice, I wouldn't teach any Kempo forms beyond Honsuki. I don't generally like anything after that, which for me is only Sho Tun Kwok (wtf name?) and about half of Nengli South. The forms are cool, but I can't really link them to any tradition and that pisses me off. Tai Si Mung (sp?) is apparently almost exactly the same as a Shaolin White Crane form, and I guess the Invincible Wall has been around for a very very long time as well, so I want to learn those for a kind of historical aspect. I love history, and martial arts certainly has a ton of it. I enjoy practicing traditional forms. Then again, I have a LOT more to learn before I'm confident in judging the advanced part of the system. If it were up to me I would keep the Kata, change the pinans to the more widely practiced Japanese Heians, and I would also love to see the Naihanchi kata added in, since it was apparently practiced traditionally in Hawaii. Then again, that kind of ke?po could very well be referring to the Okinawan styles rather than the hawaiian based ke?po arts. I dunno.
At this point I took it upon myself to train Kyokushin for a better understanding of really hard contact sparring and also for a contrast from the kempo. In my opinion the increased conditioning and hard continuous contact element is only going to improve my standup skills, which in turn can't hurt my kempo techniques. My instructors gave me their blessing to cross train as well, something a lot of karate instructors I know around here would never ever allow.
Other than that, I want to get a solid amount of stick and knife fighting under my belt and also get into more grappling heavy arts as well. After that when I have a ton of experience in all of them I would feel confident enough to open my own school. If that doesn't happen, I wouldn't want to open a school. I would feel like I was doing a disservice to my students by not making them into solid well rounded fighters who can tear it up in a ring or out on a sidewalk.
If you don't mind me asking though, where do you teach at? You sound an awful lot like an instructor I've met before somewhere. At any rate, I hope you keep doing what you're doing, because SKK definitely needs quite a bit of reforming done to it, and in my opinion you're definitely going the right way with it.
Posted On:11/08/2008 1:32am
Style: Chinese Boxing
Traditional Kempo? Wow, oxymoron.
Posted On:11/08/2008 9:09pm
Yeah, that's for sure, but I like a lot of the traditional karate forms. I know they aren't useful for fighting, but I still like doing em.
Posted On:11/10/2008 4:05pm
Style: Kempo, Kosho, BJJ
i have a BB in SKK. there is nothing wrong with the art in and of it self, its how its taught. i was lucky enough to go to a school that was not affiliated with U**D, and that emphisized physical fitness and full contact sparring with little to no protective gear (we stop using it all together past green belt) as well as offering bjj and kosho i have been training for 9 years and have little trouble dealing with practicioners of other striking based arts including muay thai, boxing, sanda, and kyokushin. i am also making my MMA debut in july. SKK's biggest weakness is that it lacks in the grappling department, somthing easy to make up by going to a BJJ school
Posted On:11/10/2008 5:21pm
Yeah, I pretty much agree. I think that on the "techniques" end of the spectrum things got a little bloated by Villari's, and some techniques I have are completely ridiculous. The art might be called "Shaolin Kempo" but in everything I've ever read about SKK the best claim I can find for that name is "Bodidharma taught martial arts to Shaolin Monks, and then it got spread around all over the place." I personally think that's pretty weak reasoning. As far as techniques that try to be kung fu like from in the system, they are horrible. Absolutely the flashiest showiest techniques that you could never ever pull off unless the guy you fought suddenly froze like a statue. A lot of techniques in Kempo are like that regardless though. I find the ones that resemble American Kempo or Kajukenbo seem like the most practical to me and work the best when I use them in sparring compared to other ones. No big surprise there.
Oh and the SKK groundwork, I think somebody must have ripped that off a women's self defense class. I think my school teaches maybe three or four specific ones that are all "t3h d43dli3s" and usually involve something like eye pokes or attempts to snap your attackers neck. One of the blackbelts at the school is a state wrestler though, so on the occasion that he runs classes we usually get decent lessons on avoiding takedowns, how to properly shoot a leg, escaping clinches, etc. Still not enough emphasis for me to say it's to my liking, but it's better than the old crap.
As far as sparring goes normal sparring in class always requires headgear and gloves, and a cup unless you want to be sterile. Anything after that is optional. In free sparring at advanced levels the contact can get pretty vigorous, but not to the extent of kyokushin or sanshou, and there is no contact below the belt which rules out a lot of the leg kicks and other low kicks that are supposed to be a staple part of the system. There has NEVER been a mixture of striking and grappling at the same time, but I expect that to start changing soon since the guy who wrestles just got promoted to sensei, meaning he gets more class time to teach.
Sadly, the majority of the sparring is still point fighting, and although decent exchanges get going there, people still pull their punches or get points on techniques that barely touch their intended target. As for the self defense techniques, the only non compliance from the uke is if the takedowns are off they don't fall. Other than that it's pretty standard punch and freeze. As the pattern goes though, a few of us try to make exceptions of that.
Bottom line is that I agree with you guys. Just practicing and teaching the system with more rigorous standards would greatly improve the art, it's just that the major chains are less than willing to do that and the independent SKK schools who try are often unknown or never take off because they're ruined by the major Franchises.
Posted On:11/10/2008 8:07pm
yeah sensei altered a large portion of the SKK techniques and combined them with kosho ryu concepts. typically, the sparring is done under the same rules as old school pancrase, no pads, slaps and palm strikes to the head and face, no elbows. the only difference is sparring is ussually on my sensei's front lawn or in the dojo on a concreate floor. my sensei is a BJJ blue belt and thus we get some pretty good ground work. kosho also has a well developed ground system, so fights continue after someone gets hucked and lands on their ass
Posted On:11/10/2008 8:53pm
That's awesome. We have a matted dojo area, but our main dojo used to be an office building so it's about a half inch of hard carpet with no padding under it over solid concrete. As far as grappling goes I may not be able to slap a good submission on many people but I can outgrapple everybody there except for the kid who wrestles, but sadly that's not saying much. I'm also not stupid enough to think that I could even halfway competently grapple most high school wrestlers, let alone BJJ or Judo novices. I'm also the only person there who has ever been interested in ground fighting beyond "well just slap pressure points and gouge eyes". We don't throw elbows to the head, but we're allowed to punch it as hard as we like. Most people wear foam dipped gear but I opted for a mouthguard and a nice set of primetime level 4 MMA gloves, which I love as a training glove. Being able to strait up open palm blast somebody would be awesome though. Where abouts do you train if you don't mind me asking?
Posted On:11/10/2008 9:05pm
Posted On:11/10/2008 10:12pm
Originally Posted by ironfist666
Jeez, talk about butt **** Egypt.
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