So, would anyone be interested in learning Judo from Vladimir Putin

[HappyOldGuy]

@Hog: I thought it was the Chinese who were vetoing involvement in the Darfur-crisis? Russia and the Chinese often cooperate in the UN security council of course so I may have misunderstood the situation.

China has tighter ties, but Russia has enough to make it two guaranteed vetos.

[nifoc]

@HOG: Aah, ok. I guess I need to read up on the situation then.


On another note: I read in an interview recently that the leader of the largest party of the opposition in Sweden was given a Judo-gi for her son when he heard he trained. Lucky bastard!! How cool would it be to have a judo-gi given to you by Putin?? Almost as cool as being given a pink one by Gene Lebell, that's how cool!!

[M.C.]

I don't want to be the devils advocate here (okay I am) but as far as I know here is a list of "democratic" actions we have seen since bush's first "election". (Well point one being president in a questionable election with actually not having the majority of the votes). The patriot act... (Did you read up on the stuff Homeland security can do without any checks and balance?) I haven't seen much critical media around and I remember that not long ago it was "anti patriotic" to question the Irak (no it is not iraq) issue. The washing away of the borders between church and state, well apparently this border was nether thick to begin with.
I could go on but the point is, this race is kind of equal, with a slight advantage on the russian side.

[nifoc]

Good point f4n4n. I don't think Putin ever tried to legalize torture either, it might be because he doesn't need to, but it's not exactly the bushies finest moment.

I sometimes wonder, when I look at what the Bush-administration has gotten away with, if the lack of a free press in Russia actually has any impact. Or if it really is such a hindering factor for Bush, how fucked would the world be if he literally could get away with murder.

[CrackFox]

What the **** am I reading here?

1) Whatever actions regarding civil liberties the Bush administration might have taken, in no way excuses Putin's actions in Russia and it's neighbours

2) If you want to play that game you know that Putin would come out far worse.


Nifoc, you bitch, I suggest you look up Anna Politkovskaya and her reports on Chechnya before you start saying anything about Putin's stance on torture.

[nifoc]

CrackFox, I suggest you read what i wrote before getting your panties all bunched up. I said that he didn't try to legalize torture, not that he didn't use it. So **** of.

No one has used the bushies fuckups to excuse Putins actions. It was used as a comparison, nothing else.

[M.C.]

Once again devils advocate, actually more pointing out the obvious...

What the **** am I reading here?

1) Whatever actions regarding civil liberties the Bush administration might have taken, in no way excuses Putin's actions in Russia and it's neighbours

Ah yeah, starting two wars with sovereign countries? (If they were dictatorships or close dictatorships, not the point!) That is better? I think it is NOT. But apparently you see this differently. Oh and before you make and fast points, remember that for instance "terrorists" from Chechnya bombed two housing blocks took hostages in more than one event etc.

2) If you want to play that game you know that Putin would come out far worse.


Nifoc, you bitch, I suggest you look up Anna Politkovskaya and her reports on Chechnya before you start saying anything about Putin's stance on torture.

Wait, are you blaming torture and imprisonment? You know there is this strange army base, apparently in CUBA (the US are sort of cool with this country, ranting space from them and such) it is called Guantanamo and I have heard that there are people held since 2001, which makes this 7 years, without a trial, without any rights, sleep deprived, water boarded... and I know of at least ONE who was KIDNAPPED (yes you read that right) out of a free European country and held there for 4 years.

Should I go on?

Again I don't say that Putin is a saint or anything but I say that you might not point with your finger when you have a steaming pile of **** right infront of you!

[CrackFox]

F4n4n, I'm not sure you understand the meaning of playing Devil's advocate. You could make some kind of "ends justify the means" type argument - that would be playing devil's advocate - bringing G.W. into the argument is just going off on a tangent. I'm no fan of Bush, but he's not relevant to this discussion (at least not in any of the ways you've listed).

I'm well aware that the Chechen's hands are far from clean, but look at what Putin has done there. In 1999 he went on record saying "If we catch them in the **** house, we'll whack them in the **** house," and then went on to carpet-bomb Grozny till there was practically nothing left.

Torture, murder? Why bother with extraordinary rendition when you can do it in the convenience of your own home. How about what was going on under Ramzan Kadyrov, the Kremlin-backed Prime Minister of Chechnya? Anna Politkovskaya calls for him to stand trial, and mysteriously gets shot. Infact, several high-profile people have been shot, poisioned or otherwise killed, with no effort made to hide it.

I'll point fingers where they need pointing, thank you very much.

[Vince Tortelli]

If Bush rolled in any way, shape or form like Uncle Vlad John Kerry and AL Gore would currently be in the spoon position with Jimmy Hoffa, and Nancy Pelosi's severed head would be mounted on the tip of the Capitol spire.

[HappyOldGuy]

If Bush rolled in any way, shape or form like Uncle Vlad John Kerry and AL Gore would currently be in the spoon position with Jimmy Hoffa, and Nancy Pelosi's severed head would be mounted on the tip of the Capitol spire.

See, that's why he's cool!