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  1. fanger123 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/16/2008 10:32pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    what are unacceptable bjj techniques in judo?

    hi guys

    i always wanted to do judo ever since i read Dave Camarillo's book.

    so finally, i joined a local judo club, and still continuing training bjj (blue belt).

    my main goal is to learn grip fighting, proper kuzushi, and of course, be better at stand up. i'm there to learn judo, not to start pulling guard and work newaza.

    but, during newaza randori, i don't want to be the jackass who uses technques that are considered either illegal or not proper judo etiquette. (kinda like bjj people wouldn't appreciate a sambo guy doing heel hooks on bjj white belts).

    i'm pretty sure that all cranks/spinal cord attacks/leg locks are illegal in judo, just like in lower level bjj.

    this site is nice but i don't know the japanese terms http://www.judoinfo.com/gokyo2.htm

    are these other techniques legal ?

    -ezekiel choke
    -omoplata
    -gogoplata
    -knee on belly
    -taking someone's back with hooks in
    -wrist locks
    -the lapel chokes where you feed your own or your opponent's lapel
    -wrestling type double legs/single legs takedowns
    -mata leao
    -crucifix

    had my first class, and to my surprise the randori was all newaza... people would turtle so frequently, but i wasn't sure what was ok to do from there...

    thanks guys! :)
  2. 1point2 is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/16/2008 10:49pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 剛 and 柔

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A) ask the instructor

    B) Grain of salt, I don't go to a judo school, this is just my understanding

    C) Usually only locks on the elbow are allowed in tournament-style randori, which may or may not be the most common or only randori they do. Blood chokes OK.

    D) Gogoplata, omoplata, ezekiel, wristlocks all sound like no-nos. The others are mostly probably sort of OK.

    I recommend getting really good at every technique they show you, and doing other stuff you know only infrequently and with infinite care.
  3. Petter is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/16/2008 10:52pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't know judo, but I gather that at least the Ezekiel is originally a judo technique ("sode jime", from what I can find).

    Obviously, "Ask the instructor" is generally a good answer.
  4. gandp1120 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/16/2008 10:57pm


     Style: bjj brown belt

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ezekiel is legal, it is considered a gi choke. Any choke using the gi is legal. Any upper body subs excluding neck cranks, servical locks, or chokes that cut off wind are illegal. By that I mean it must be a blood choke.
  5. Deadmeat is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/16/2008 11:04pm


     Style: Mixed Martial Arts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fanger123
    -ezekiel choke
    Yep. Sode Guruma Jime. Generally ok, but you may have to modify your sleeve grip, I've been told conflicting things about it's legality.

    Quote Originally Posted by fanger123
    -omoplata
    Yep, but don't crank it.

    Quote Originally Posted by fanger123
    -gogoplata
    Basically Kagato Jime. Absolutely fine, but don't pull on the head.

    Quote Originally Posted by fanger123
    -knee on belly
    Yep

    Quote Originally Posted by fanger123
    -taking someone's back with hooks in
    Yep

    Quote Originally Posted by fanger123
    -wrist locks
    meh. Not really.

    Quote Originally Posted by fanger123
    -the lapel chokes where you feed your own or your opponent's lapel
    Yep. Generally speaking these are ok. Try and stick to cross lapel chokes and sliding lape though.

    Quote Originally Posted by fanger123
    -wrestling type double legs/single legs takedowns
    Morote Gari, Te Guruma, Kata Guruma, etc. All good.

    Quote Originally Posted by fanger123
    -mata leao
    Hadake JIme/Kata-hadake Jime. Totally fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by fanger123
    -crucifix
    Nope.

    Also, when doing the triangle choke (Sankaku Jime) apparently you aren't supposed to pull down on their head directly. You'll have to rely on the legs only. I get busted for that often, but it's force of habit.
  6. Deadmeat is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/16/2008 11:06pm


     Style: Mixed Martial Arts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sorry for double post.

    Quote Originally Posted by gandp1120
    Ezekiel is legal, it is considered a gi choke. Any choke using the gi is legal. Any upper body subs excluding neck cranks, servical locks, or chokes that cut off wind are illegal. By that I mean it must be a blood choke.
    My coach distinguishes between Strangles and Chokes. Strangles are (according to him) pure oxygen deprivation, and are not legal. A Choke deprives uke of both blood and oxygen to the brain.

    A poorly executed choke often unintentionally ends up as a strangle.

    On a side note, legend has it that the Ezequiel choke is named after a Judoka who managed to submit several bjjers from within their guards using sode guruma Jime, much like the Ude Garame arm lock is called Kimura in honor of the judoka who used it so successfully.
    Last edited by Deadmeat; 9/16/2008 11:10pm at .
  7. fanger123 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/16/2008 11:17pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    well i downplayed by bjj background at the class... when people saw that it was my first class but had a gi, they asked what was my background and i'd just answer jiujitsu. i once got kicked out of a TKD school when i told the school's GM that i did BJJ... his face just changed and it was not a pleasant experience.

    so yeah that's why i want to keep a low profile and just blend with the other judo white belts, and didn't ask much to the instructor in regards to different ruleset judo / bjj... though the instructor knows that i did bjj... and i was very relieved that he didn't seem to mind.

    thanks for the info guys!
  8. fanger123 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/16/2008 11:20pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    and what the heck are body scissors? (do-jime)?

    looked up judo regulations on wiki, and they said that do-jime were illegal. are they spinal attacks?
  9. Deadmeat is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/16/2008 11:23pm


     Style: Mixed Martial Arts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In regards to being a bjjer in a judo class, at my club, no-one would care to be honest. Online I read about rivalry between judokas and bjjers, but honestly, there's nothing but mutual respect between the two, as the arts are so compatible.

    Do-Jime is basically super-tight closed guard, where you extend your legs and squeeze as hard as you can. The idea is to compress your opponent's trunk and asphyxiate them.

    I wouldn't worry about it.



    It's classified as a separate technique to the guard (Do Osae).
    Last edited by Deadmeat; 9/16/2008 11:28pm at . Reason: add picture
  10. Petter is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/16/2008 11:35pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fanger123
    well i downplayed by bjj background at the class... when people saw that it was my first class but had a gi, they asked what was my background and i'd just answer jiujitsu. i once got kicked out of a TKD school when i told the school's GM that i did BJJ... his face just changed and it was not a pleasant experience.
    I used to practice Shotokan. When I started practicing BJJ, I knew that I wouldn't get a good reaction if I mentioned it, so I kept a low profile, didn't really tell anyone, made sure the instructor and other senior blackbelts didn't know I was cross-training.

    Then I realised that a group of people where I can't even be open about what gyms I go to is not a healthy atmosphere, so I quit karate.
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