The laymen's idiocy: Traditionalism in MA where it's not necessary

[PointyShinyBurn]

I'm teaching Ju-Jitsu.

What style of Ju-Jitsu?

The rationale for grabbing at base of neck is to yank forward getting a sort of whiplash effect, pulling right down for a takedown if you can get it

This is called a 'snap-down'. You still do it, if you're doing it right, by gripping the back of the head and putting your elbow in his collar bone or upper chest.

(the grab happens after striking to the head so chances are reasonable that he won't react very coherently until far too late).

Still more likely to work if you do it right.

[MJ Dougherty]

My experience is that it's easier to get the neck after the strike and that yanking down on neck rather than head has a useful whiplash effect.... and that the takedown I want (either straight down, effectively throwing the head at my feet or using a rotating movement with the hands round the neck acting much like a horse collar, ie holding rather than pulling) tends to fail if you're on the head because once you reach a certain point - elbows in or not - then it skids off.

Holding by the neck lets you get down deeper before you lose control.

The style is SDF combat ju-jitsu.

[PointyShinyBurn]

My experience is that it's easier to get the neck after the strike and that yanking down on neck rather than head has a useful whiplash effect.... and that the takedown I want (either straight down, effectively throwing the head at my feet or using a rotating movement with the hands round the neck acting much like a horse collar, ie holding rather than pulling) tends to fail if you're on the head because once you reach a certain point - elbows in or not - then it skids off.

The first one is common in wrestling and they do it with their hands on the back of the head. The second is common in MT where they do it with their hands on the back of the head. It's a basic principle that it's much easier to move someone's head, and therefore their balance, when you apply force further from the neck where you can get some leverage against it.

[MJ Dougherty]

Fair enough. I was shown it using the neck and it's always worked great that way for me, so I teach it that way. That said, I might have a bit of an experiment with using the head and see how that works out.

It wasn't so much the suggestion that there was another way to do things (better or otherwise) that was annoying; more that this was one of several things butted into a class full of beginners by someone who's not insured to teach in that class and who I don't know from Adam.


I'm entirely willing to learn from and share ideas with people whose experience is different to mine. What I'm not prepared to do is let some random person start teaching my students, especially not by just butting in and delivering a lecture.

[PointyShinyBurn]

Fair enough. I was shown it using the neck and it's always worked great that way for me, so I teach it that way. That said, I might have a bit of an experiment with using the head and see how that works out.

If you've got any Thai Boxers about, give them a look. They've raised this kind of thing to a science.

I'm entirely willing to learn from and share ideas with people whose experience is different to mine. What I'm not prepared to do is let some random person start teaching my students, especially not by just butting in and delivering a lecture.

Fair enough.

]The style is SDF combat ju-jitsu.

We've got some of you guys in our BJJ association. They're not perfect, but they sure as **** don't resemble aikidoka (My BJJ coach on returning from a seminar with them: "I think those guys, man, they try to fucking kill each other").

[Squerlli]

I actually clinch the back of the neck if I initiate the clinch. If I can get more knee's in then I move it higher and pinch my elbows together. Basically I wanna push the head down first and then move my hands up a little.

[MJ Dougherty]

Yeah, the Aikido thing amused me. We used to share the hall with Aikido people and they were often upset by things like non-compliance and, you know, violence. I've trained with non-compliant people; rolled, sparred and fought for my grades (and come out concussed from being an uke in someone else's gradings). Never been mistaken for an Aikidoka before....

SDF people... yeah, we have our little faults and foibles. But we also hit one another and, well, compliance isn't really our thing. If it works on someone actively trying to smash your noggin, it's considered accepable until something better comes along. If it doesn't, we'd drop it like a live grenade.

The way I do this particular thing is how it was taught to me and how it's worked when I've done it on non-compliant people. I know a Thai Boxer (he sometimes borrows part of the hall at my fencing club to do his cardio work) - I might have a chat with him and see what he can show me.

I'm teaching what's worked for me. If you can show me a better way I'm all over it like a tramp on chips.

[Yojimbo1717]

Gym culture - namely varying gym cultures within different sports and arts are utterly fascinating.

I just thought I'd note that because of your commentary on the Aikidokas and how they responded to your methods non-compliance.

[MJ Dougherty]

Gym culture - namely varying gym cultures within different sports and arts are utterly fascinating.

I just thought I'd note that because of your commentary on the Aikidokas and how they responded to your methods non-compliance.

The funny thing was... their instructor liked what we do and actually trained with us once. He'd say 'hey, we also do that, though we'd do it slightly differently' and we enjoyed sharing perspective on what amounts to different sides of the same technical coin.

His students, almost to a man, turned their noses up at us as a bunch of undisciplined yahoos. I think the instructor could see past the naturally rough edges you get when training with someone who's not compliant and realised that we're basically doing a lot of similar things to what he teaches. The students only saw the lack of elegance, and presumably took the fact that it looked scrappy as a lack of skill.

It was, as you say, fascinating.