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  1. #31
    Cullion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRuss
    Thank you. I shall do twenty push-ups in your honour.
    Careful you don't develop a muscle imbalance with your blown up pecs.
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  2. #32
    Emevas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    He never asked for that. He just asked for a challenge. Why does everything have to be about maximal strength? He's not going to be doing hundreds of pistols anyway. He might not even be able to do 5 yet.
    I didn't say maximal strength, I said strength and power, which by definition are 2 different things. I don't know of any other type of strength aside from the definition of strength, not counting buzz words like "functional strength" or "strength endurance", so when you brought up the idea of strength to bodyweight, I assumed you meant exactly strength to bodyweight.

    And if he's not able to do 5 pistols yet, but you want him to keep adding reps instead of resistance, won't he eventually move out of the strength and power range and into the hypertrophy range, and eventually the endurance range?
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  3. #33
    Cullion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas
    I didn't say maximal strength, I said strength and power, which by definition are 2 different things. I don't know of any other type of strength aside from the definition of strength, not counting buzz words like "functional strength" or "strength endurance", so when you brought up the idea of strength to bodyweight, I assumed you meant exactly strength to bodyweight.
    Yes I did, but he never mentioned it, so it's not essential that a routine is designed to optimise it.

    And if he's not able to do 5 pistols yet, but you want him to keep adding reps instead of resistance, won't he eventually move out of the strength and power range and into the hypertrophy range, and eventually the endurance range?
    Yes absolutely. Why does he have to train for strength and power?
    Last edited by Cullion; 9/21/2008 7:49pm at .
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  4. #34
    Jack Rusher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Question
    Any other compound exercises that would be good? Should I be squatting anyway?
    Have you considered overhead squats?

    Example:

    YouTube - Overhead Squat - Bodyweight x 15 reps

    Tutorial:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEeYGEIfsu0

    I'm in love with them. If they were a woman, I'd marry them. Add in some deadlifts, press-ups and chins, you'll do fine -- not that there's nothing wrong with cleans.
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  5. #35
    Jack Rusher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas
    in terms of maximizing training time efficiency I'd use resistance training for maximal strength and power, and mat time for endurance and skill.
    We (i.e. the Alliance BJJ competition team) do circuit training to improve sport-specific endurance (3 rounds of ~20 stations, each for 30 seconds, no rest), and it really seems to work. Of course, we also do an hour of sparring right after...
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4

  6. #36
    TheRuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    He never asked for that. He just asked for a challenge. Why does everything have to be about maximal strength?.
    It doesn't have to be about maximal strength. It just isn't about sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.

    If he wants maximal strength, he should train in maximal strength patterns.
    If he wants power, he should train in power patterns.
    If he wants anaerobic endurance, he should train in anaerobic endurance patterns.
    If he wants aerobic endurance, he should train in aerobic endurance patterns.

    Training in sarcoplasmic hypertrophy patterns (whatever rep range they may be) is suboptimal if he doesn't want sarcoplasmic hypertrophy - not because he'll bloat up, but because he won't make as much progress towards the stuff he does want as if he trained specifically towards those goals.

    This would be an opportune time for you to bear this post in mind as you re-read this thread.

  7. #37
    Emevas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    Yes I did, but he never mentioned it, so it's not essential that a routine is designed to optimise it.



    Yes absolutely. Why does he have to train for strength and power?

    I'm terribly confused now. I thought you were talking about strength training when you said

    because it's strength-to-bodyweight ratio that matters here rather than his absolute strength level.
    The way to develop a great strength to bodyweight ratio is to develop your strength and power, as doing so teaches your CNS to be more efficient while not promoting a great degree of hypertrophy. I don't see how bodyweight training accomplishes this, as due to the law of diminishing returns and the basic nature of strength training, when he gets into the 30-100 range, he'll be developing lower and lower levels of muscular endurance, not improving his strength to bodyweight ratio.
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69

  8. #38

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    Cullion you are restricting the training means unnecessarily. Why restrict yourself to just doing body weight movements when it is not necessary to do so? Any form of training is just a means to an end so should reflect this.

    The main tool is manipulating the training target is rep ranges, not movements. Using the bench press for an example, by manipulating the reps and subtle changes to the movments you can target anything from power to endurance. All training mentioned so far is GPP anyway so its function is to prepare you for more sport specific applications so the movements arn't imporant. You may decide that when designing a complete program that bodyweight movements validate a place in this and that is fine, although I am of the opinion that movements like pistols dont have great transferance to other activities.

  9. #39
    Cullion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas
    I'm terribly confused now. I thought you were talking about strength training when you said
    Read in context that quote means 'he can increase the reps without gaining muscle mass because the resistance is provided by his own body mass, so he can eat a cutting diet and do lots of cardio'. It does not mean 'this is the best way to increase absolute strength or power levels'
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  10. #40
    Cullion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRuss
    It doesn't have to be about maximal strength. It just isn't about sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.

    If he wants maximal strength, he should train in maximal strength patterns.
    If he wants power, he should train in power patterns.
    If he wants anaerobic endurance, he should train in anaerobic endurance patterns.
    If he wants aerobic endurance, he should train in aerobic endurance patterns.

    Training in sarcoplasmic hypertrophy patterns (whatever rep range they may be) is suboptimal if he doesn't want sarcoplasmic hypertrophy - not because he'll bloat up, but because he won't make as much progress towards the stuff he does want as if he trained specifically towards those goals.

    This would be an opportune time for you to bear this post in mind as you re-read this thread.
    He asked for a challenge that wouldn't bulk him up. I gave him one.
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