I'm grindin' 'till I'm tired...
Posted On:9/11/2007 11:02pm
Style: Judo. Some BJJ/Kickboxing
I recently moved from Halifax, a mid-size Canadian city, to Toronto. Part of the motive for that was to finally end up somewhere where I can get decent quality BJJ/MMA/MT/Judo lessons.
I also wanted to get back into a gym and start lifting again (I have been sticking to bodyweight for the last year or so).
I spoke to my friend who is a Judo BB and also an avid weightlifter about this, and he advised me not to take MA lessons for a few months and instead to focus just on gaining mass (one of my big goals is to go from my current trim 180 to a more imposing 200 or so). He tells me that the cardio involved in, say, a BJJ class will be very counterproductive if I'm trying to bulk up.
Is that correct? I really do want to add some muscle, and of course bodyweight stuff at this point is toning and maintaining but no longer adding weight. But I also really want to get to a BJJ class ASAP, because I know it's a long road ahead to get decent at BJJ and I don't want to waste any time (plus I really enjoy grappling). What are the opinions of people with experience or qualifications? (El Macho, I'm looking in your direction)
"[Fighting for Points] is doubtless very pretty, and invariably draws applause, but preferences should always be given to blows that do some business, to good straight hits that do something toward finishing the fight.
A man who has carefully trained for brilliant tapping play, will find himself considerably out of it in case he is called upon to do any real work."
-A.J. Newton, Boxing.
Posted On:9/11/2007 11:31pm
Something you will hear people in MA say time and time again. Strength is the cheat for those with sloppy technique.
When you are fighting in MMA or BJJ, you will be divided up into your corresponding weight classes, which nullifies any advantage in muscle you get by packing extra muscle pounds. That's the reason why the weight divisions exist. Better to be skilled at your current weight, which is something extra muscle can't compensate for.
On that note, I will say the opposite of what your friend suggested. CARDIO CARDIO CARDIO. Run, jump, bike, swim, whatever you gotta do to get your cardio up. Just cuz you have strength (or even skill) doesn't matter if you're gassing on the mat after 2 minutes. Stronger cardio allows you more options, and more time. Not even in fighting, but also in learning. If your cardio is good, you can spend more time drilling techniques with your partner until it's into your muscle memory. If you're cardio is weak and you're gassing from even that, you won't be able to learn much.
Less muscle, more brain, more heart (which I translate into meaning cardio).
Posted On:9/11/2007 11:43pm
Why do you have to lift weights to get stronger? Won't you get stronger from training? Or do you want to bulk up to be bigger? The whole point of MA is you don't have the be the bigger person or stronger person to win.
GIJoe6186 like boys, mainly his brother
Posted On:9/12/2007 5:41am
Do you have a fight coming up??? Then don't worry about cardio just yet, you will be fine just going to class.
Lift big heavy weights and gain as much strength/explosiveness as you can. I wouldn't focus on mass so much as I would strength (hence low rep heavy weight stuff, plus some oly/explosive lifting). Yes there are weight classes in combat sports, but if you are the strongest one in your weight class that is a very good thing.
Cardio is king and all but focus on that once you gain your STRENGTH (not mass).
Posted On:9/12/2007 5:53am
Originally Posted by Mr Bosco
Training in weightlifting to be a better grappler or fighter does not make sense. Just because you are strong in the weight room does not mean you are strong on the mat. No way,man. Your friend is wrong. We have had guys who can Deadlift 200kg easy come in and try a wrestling class. They where ready to pass out after our warmup. WHich is 10 mins straight of bear crawls, sprints and double leg takedwon drills.
Maybe he was strong in the weight room but not on the mat because he was "trying out a class", he was new? Maybe he needed to learn how to grapple so he could use his strength properly. Just because they "pass out after the warmup" does not mean they are too strong, how many out of shape fatties gas out in a warmup? You are implying an association when there is just coincidence.
Originally Posted by Mr Bosco
Now adding mass is not the answer. Adding mass will NOT increase your athletic performance.
Truth, however increasing your strength (your limit strength by following a heavy routine focused on getting stronger, which then allows all other types of strength to increase) WILL increase athletic performance.
Before I started fighting in June I lifted often, and was strong for my weight class (dead 465, bench 345, military 215, could close a CoC#2) and when I hit my first 2 opponents they were rocked hard. Thank you weight lifting!
Now come my 3rd and 4th fight I had lost some strength due to focusing on other things (cardio and stuff) and I noticed my hands were not as heavy. Now I am taking time to lift more until a few weeks out from my next fight (where I can then switch out cardio goals for strength) to regain that strength.
Posted On:9/12/2007 6:51am
Follow Ross Enamait's Infinite Intensity program.
It's a strength program that is meant to supplement your skill-based training, not replace it. The workouts are short, yet effective.
If you're aiming to put on 20lbs then i'm afraid to say that a lot of that will be useless bulk as opposed to lean strong muscle in the time frame you are speaking of.
Look up the difference between sarcomere and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy:
Posted On:9/12/2007 9:07am
Style: creonte on hiatus
Epi, I have little experience and my qualifications are just trial-and-error for years, plus what I exchange with our fellow bullies. I've learned more from Emevas, LI, GI, PJ and Res Judicata in the last 1 year (when I finally started switching from bodybuilding to powerlifting exercises) that in all my prev years of fooling around in the gym :tongue6:
My take is that you should concentrate on training for strenght and power, eat like a pig while you do so, and do not neglect your cardio. Size will come as a side-effect. It will inevitably come. That happens to powerlifters, olympic weight lifters and track-and-field athletes.
If you concentrate exclusively on size, you'll get size, but you won't be as strong and powerful as you could be (which is your ultimate go). Moreover, you'll drop in size once you go back to grappling. That's inevitable.
So whether you take a break from grappling to lift, or if you combine both at the same time (some of the guys here do that), do it for strenght and power and eat right. Size will come (specially if you whore out on squats and deadlifts).
Now, some caveats:
My take would be that you could gain lean mass and increase size and all that if you stop doing MA and just dedicate yourself to lift weights. But what will happen when you go back to MA? You will lose some of it (or all of it if you don't eat right.)
I haven't grapple in months, just lifting and eating like a pig to substain the lifting. I'm quite close to get 170lbs (I'm getting kinda chubby, but that's fine :tongue3:) I haven't been/felt this strong and solid in a long time.
But I can assure you that when I go back to grappling, I'm going to lose some of it (I've dropped 10, 15lbs when gone to grappling in a matter of months). You may experience the same.
Right now I'm just focusing on strenght. Size is just coming to me as a side effect, and I treat it so because I know I'll lose some of it if/when I go back to grappling.
You have to understand that when you lift, you lift and then you rest. When you go back to grappling, you'll either stop lifting, or lift less often. Not only that, the time you used to have to recover from one workout to another will be used in your BJJ classes.
Not only that, assume for example that you go from 180 to 200, but you don't do cardio.
Then you go to BJJ cold turkey. Your cardio is going to suck ass so much, the classes will be a torture. You have to understand that 20 extra pounds of muscle, fat, blood, etc, that's living tissue that requires nutrients, oxygen, etc. It's not like carrying a 20lbs weight vest. You'll gas out faster if you neglect your cardio while you go about gaining mass.
Whatever you do man, make sure you do some light "cardio" on a weekly basis, you can't let that drop off your radar. Better yet, keep doing your sprints and similar stuff at least on a weekly basis, and gradually increase it as you get closer to go back to grappling.
You need to play with it and find a good balance for you (since we all respond differently to workouts) as well as being open to do what you like most at that moment (be it lifting, grappling or both.)
The most important thing is to eat right and often. If you eat well while lifting but stop doing so when going back to grappling, you'll lose all your gains (size and strenght), that's for sure.
Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.
My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.
New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.
t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.
The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
Posted On:9/12/2007 9:08am
Originally Posted by Mr Bosco
Training in weightlifting to be a better grappler or fighter does not make sense. Just because you are strong in the weight room does not mean you are strong on the mat. No way,man. Your friend is wrong.
Rhadi Ferguson disagrees:
And so did Kimura
Most top-level grapplers and wrestlers out there have included a weight training regime into their training program, for strenght or size depending on what they need at any given moment. As a matter of fact, when an athlete cannot get any stronger, his coach usually switch them to a hyperthrophy training (to increase size) and then switch back to a strenght and power program.
You should read some of Rhadi's stuff. In fact, here its some:
From your body's physique it is obvious that you have spent time under heavy iron as well. How do you organize your workouts?
(Rhadi) Ahhhhh, the secrets of training - Periodization. I do a little of this and a little of that. I do go through all of the cycles of anatomical adaptation, strength, power, power endurance and metabolic conditioning, but the organization of my workouts really depend on what I'm doing and what I'm preparing for. For the Olympic Games I was working out 2 times a day and cycling the workouts between hard days and easy days.
In terms of my training I would begin with Hypertrophy and then go to Power and then into Power Metabolic or what some people call Power Endurance. Usually JC and I would skip the Strength portion of the cycle or just do a hybrid of strength and power. The reason, I was strong enough and when you have a period of time when you are training for an event you don't train what you have, you train what you need. My biggest issue that I was able to eliminate (well almost) was my inability to maintain a high level of explosive power over the whole time period. I was very pleased when I reached the Olympic Games in my second match against the Silver Medalist when I was able to explode and go all out for the whole five minutes. At then end of the match I was exhausted, but the training paid off.
It is impossible for me to go into all of our training systems or my whole training macrocycle in one question, but I will tell you this. The "money" cycle, the training cycle - in my opinion which is the most important - is the Power Metabolic Cycle. You can take the same workout in the Power Metabolic Cycle and tweak it for strength, for power, and/or for Power Endurance. A great example of our Power Endurance circuits are in our S.A.I.D. DVD series. Now the way you can tweak these workout for the cycles that I mentioned is this. You can take each exercise which is in the circuit and do it in what we call a "Component Style". Meaning you take each exercise and add some external resistance to it. An easy fix is a weight vest, a medicine ball or in some cases some dumbbells are barbells. And you just perform the reps and rest and then move to the next exercise.
Once you've done that for about 2 weeks, you can begin to reduce the rest time between each exercise and then you can do that for two weeks. After that you can remove the vest and eliminate the rest between the exercises and perform the circuits as fast as possible. We call that "training under the hood". Because in order to do circuits faster, you can't do more circuits. You have to add more power to the output of the exercises. And to make a car go faster you can't drive it faster, you have to open up the hood and replace the engine. This is the same for marathon runners. They don't get faster by running longer. They get faster by doing intervals and sprints and then their marathon time decreases.
So if you are practice, the key is not to roll for 2 hours. The key is to roll hard for 5-7 minutes and then take a break and roll hard for another 5-7 minutes. Press the pace and move. Sacrifice good position to try something and keep moving. There is a time to do this of course, but this is the philosophical premise. When you are in a live match you will not sacrifice good position, but the constant moving from training in practice will allow you to develop the sports specific conditioning that you will need in live situations. Thus, SPECIFIC ADAPTATIONS TO IMPOSED DEMANDS! You will be able to adapt according to the demands placed on the body.
If you would like to know and get the system that we used to train our fighters then I would recommend the Program Design Book from our website. I would also highly recommend the Specific Adaptations to Imposed Demands (S.A.I.D.) DVDs as well. We understand that a lot of fighters have these questions so we have constructed an ebook how to "Avoid the Five Biggest Mistakes that Coaches Make with Combat Athletes" and that is available by sending an email to firstname.lastname@example.org The free ebook comes immediately after signing up for our newsletter.
So what are your best 'numbers' for the basic powerlifting exercises?
I've squatted 650 lbs.
For the bench it was 405 lbs: I did that in college 1996 and never maxed out again. I just didn't see the purpose. I've done 30 reps of 225lbs as well.
For the deadlift - I've never maxed out.
And if weight lifting is the wrong way to go and a crutch to hide bad technique, then why the grapplearts guys have these articles?
In other words, get your facts straight buddy.
Posted On:9/12/2007 9:35am
Not only if strenght training necessary for just strenght. It helps in preventing injuries (*** Mr. Bosco, I'm looking at you ***)
Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
Here are some thoughts based on personal experience:
ACL (Anterior Cruciate Ligament) in the middle of your knee is often injured in martial arts and sports in general. Studies have shown that that strong hamstring muscles can prevent ACL tears. The reason for that is that muscle is directly responsible for 'holding' that joint in place. A weak, slack, or inflexible muscle that fails in a critical moment can cause that joint to be injured.
- Also -
When I did kickboxing I used to get extremely bad neck/back pain. The kind where do something, even a minor movement, and suddenly shooting pain into the skull. It hurts to breathe and forget about turning your head. I was sure it was a neck/back injury.
It was a muscular imbalance. I did so many rounds on the bags punching that my front delts, pecs, etc were actually getting bigger, stronger, etc than the OPPOSING muscle groups, which in turn whacked my back/neck/shoulders out. And that is what caused pain.
The solution, as I figured out, was to do rowing and pull ups to balance everything out. My problem was solved.
After that experience I reflected back on what doctors told me about the hamstring protecting the ACL and realized that all those years kicking and developing a destructive round kick probably over-strenghtened my quads in relation to my hams. My Judo suffered because of weak buttocks/hamstrings and I never took the time to strengthen them. I hated doing squats. And eventually I got a torn ACL.
Nowadays I do compound major muscle group lifts. And I feel it has protected me from a lot of injuries. And if you do martial arts for any length of time you ARE going to get injured. Lifting can help prevent or minimize the number of injuries you will get.
Personally I believe in a balance between power and endurance lifting. Meaning I do both. Sometimes I lift heavy for low reps. Sometimes I lift light for high reps. But I concentrate on doing the 'big' lifts before I do the 'little' lifts. I will do deadlifts and squats, and only rarely do leg extensions and leg curls. I will do powercleans and chest press, but only rarely do bicep curls or tricep extensions. Mainly this is because I don't want to spend 2 hours a day in the gym. I only go to the gym 2x per week. I just can't recover enough from jiu jitsu to do the 4x a week I probably should to see 'real' gains in size and strength.
i keep tryin to spar, but nothin happens!
Posted On:9/12/2007 12:16pm
Style: karate / bjj
weight training has it's place... but that place is not in place of mat time.
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