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  1. Nemesai is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/13/2008 12:02pm


     Style: Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks DL, I'm starting to grasp this concept.

    Mostly just trying to sort out the best method to ply upon my trainees.

    I've got one student who needs to loose 3 inches on his stomach to pass the military fitness requirements. I've taught a couple of people how to box, which is easier for me, but I'm reluctant to teach something like fighting, when they're going to have to learn a whole other way of fighting in basic training.
  2. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2008 12:07pm

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     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That whole other way of fighting during basic training isn't going to matter all that much.
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  3. Nemesai is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/13/2008 12:12pm


     Style: Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas
    That whole other way of fighting during basic training isn't going to matter all that much.
    I agree with yah. Just seemed kind of silly to teach someone a few months of boxing, with no sparring, and no plan to continue boxing, if I could improve their shape faster in another manner. It'd be a lot easier on me mentally just to teach em boxing though. Do some mitt work, run with em.. perhaps have them try to punch me a for a few rounds. It's more fun I think.


    The recruiters need to hook me up with a good weight gym so I can take these guys for that. The only equipment I have at home is bags, road and rope.. and a little pool. I want to start doing 5X5 squat program with em.
  4. dumblucky is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/13/2008 2:46pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't know if this is what you're looking for but I always thought this was a pretty good program for general fitness (with a slight bias towards endurance sports).

    http://outside.away.com/outside/body...your_life.html

    Parts of it will look a bit light if you've got any experience lifting or doing endurance events but it will lead you through the high points of general fitness. If you have the patience to track down all the links, its pretty easy to follow.

    Hope that helps
  5. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2008 3:39pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is getting frustrating.

    Quote Originally Posted by dumblucky
    Does everybody understand that VO2max training and HIIT training don't necessarily have anything to do with each other?
    Time for an important distinction:

    "VO2max training" could mean any of:
    -"training to improve VO2max"
    -"training at VO2max"
    -"training with a %VO2max target"

    These are very different things. The (imperfect) weightlifting analogy is that VO2max - that is, the aerobic threshold - is like a one-rep max. You can train to improve your 1RM, you can train at your 1RM, or you can train at a certain percentage of your 1RM.

    Quote Originally Posted by dumblucky
    By definition, high intensity usually refers to activities that take place under 45 seconds.
    Please provide a source for this definition.

    Quote Originally Posted by dumblucky
    This is because the body doesn't need oxygen to access energy in this time frame and has more naturally available. It's anaerobic.

    After 45 seconds or so, the body reaches its anaerobic limit and needs oxygen (aerobic) to access its energy supply. Aerobic activity can go on for hours at a slower/less intense pace. That means that at 45 seconds, you can either slow down and recover or go aerobic.
    The limitation on how much energy the body can draw from a particular energy store is the speed at which it can be converted to ATP (the proximate source of energy used for muscular exertion). If your intensity level is low, so are your energy demands, and your body will be able to restore ATP and phosphocreatine fast enough by lipolysis or oxidative phosphorylation. At progressively higher energy demands, the slower metabolic processes (lipolysis, oxidative phosphorylation, and finally glycolysis) will not be able to keep up with energy demand. At this point, phosphocreatine and ATP levels will decrease, resulting in a reduction in energy output.

    It is exercise intensity that determines how heavily each energy system is taxed, and thereby dictates upper limits on exercise duration. Duration by itself does not control energy system recruitment.

    Quote Originally Posted by dumblucky
    VO2 max studies - because they measure oxygen use - are only concerned about aerobic activity, which is why all of the examples in the V02 link went on for at least 25 minutes total time.
    Refer to the distinction I made at the start of this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by dumblucky
    (15sec on/15 sec off for 25 minutes does not give you enough time to fully recover anaerobically so you end up using your aerobic capabilities).
    To reiterate, it is exercise intensity that determines how heavily each energy system is taxed. Even at maximal exertion, your body is "using your aerobic capabilities" - but the rates of lipolysis, oxidative phosphorylation, and the body's supply of glucose and oxygen to the muscle tissue cannot keep up with the cell's demands. Thus, after a relatively brief period of maximum-intensity exercise, the body's stores of ATP and phosphocreatine run low, and the energy output of your muscles decreases.

    Quote Originally Posted by dumblucky
    Depending on how you do it, it can increase your VO2 max but that is only a side effect to fat burning.
    The "goal" and "side effect" are determined by the exerciser/experimener's goals. If you were to modify your claim to say that the effects on body fat breakdown are more significant (with respect to other training protocols) than the effects on VO2max, you might have an argument... but remember that energy output at the anaerobic threshold (VO2max) is not the only factor in endurance.

    After SIT, CS maximal activity increased by 38% (5.5 ± 1.0 vs. 4.0 ± 0.7 mmol·kg protein–1·h–1) and resting muscle glycogen content increased by 26% (614 ± 39 vs. 489 ± 57 mmol/kg dry wt) (both P < 0.05). Most strikingly, cycle endurance capacity increased by 100% after SIT (51 ± 11 vs. 26 ± 5 min; P < 0.05), despite no change in O2 peak.
    -Burgomaster et al, "Six sessions of sprint interval training increases muscle oxidative potential and cycle endurance capacity in humans"

    ---

    To switch gears for a bit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Quija
    I was 365 pounds, I've been the same relative weight/size since I was about 7. I started running, I could not run 50 yards. 1 month later I could run a mile, 2 months, 2 miles, not long after I ran a 5k, then 10k a little later. I was still 340 pounds. I let myself go again and at 365 pounds within one month I ran 10k again. Fat people can run marathons and marathon runners can carry a gut. My times aren't epic but that has as much to do with a short stride as it does with being fat.
    Note the word competitively. When heavy people start clocking in at under three hours, I'll change my mind on this one.

    ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas
    Can't we all just resolve to lift heavy stuff a lot?
    You got a resistance-training program optimized for improving body composition? Not a rhetorical question - I'm honestly looking for one at the moment to use for the next few weeks.
  6. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2008 5:07pm

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     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've truthfully not read a fair degree of the topic. Are you talking about reduction of bodyfat when you say improve body composition, or improving "cardio"?
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  7. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2008 5:27pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The former - "body composition" and "body fat percentage" are usually interchangeable (to my knowledge).

    I've restructured my workouts and martial arts training to get more flexibility, so I should be able to lift more than the once-a-week I'd been doing for the last two months. Still have a few pounds of fat to get rid of and a few pounds of muscle to reclaim, and my thought was to do the former first so it'd be easier to track the latter.

    I know that Serious Strength Training (despite the name, it's written for bodybuilders) had a section in it about high-volume resistance training for fat-burning in the pre-competition phase. Not sure how it differs from the typical circuit training, though.

    There's always the cardio theatre and the swimming pool, too.
  8. dumblucky is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/13/2008 6:10pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Russ - I don't mind clarifying what I said before but before I do, I need to check something. Are you using VO2 max to refer to the anaerobic/aerobic threshhold?

    "The (imperfect) weightlifting analogy is that VO2max - that is, the aerobic threshold - is like a one-rep max."

    " . . . but remember that energy output at the anaerobic threshold (VO2max) is not the only factor in endurance."
  9. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2008 6:25pm

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     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm not really the one to talk to about fat burning, as I tend to not care all that much about my bodyfat%, but usually when I'm trying to trim any weight, I do it through diet and tend to stay on the same lifting plan or change to something low volume, high intensity, high frequency (something similar to what Pavel suggests, or Rippetoe, or really any classic 5x5 style).
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  10. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2008 7:00pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dumblucky
    Russ - I don't mind clarifying what I said before but before I do, I need to check something. Are you using VO2 max to refer to the anaerobic/aerobic threshhold?
    Yes, with a few caveats.

    VO2 max (also maximal oxygen consumption, maximal oxygen uptake or aerobic capacity) is the maximum capacity of an individual's body to transport and utilize oxygen during incremental exercise, which reflects the physical fitness of the individual. The name is derived from V̇ - volume per time, O2 - oxygen, max - maximum.
    -The infallible and omniscient Wikipedia

    (Caveat #1 right there: I rely heavily on Wikipedia. Caveat lector.)

    The oxygen delivered to a muscle fiber is a hard limit on the rate at which a muscle can perform oxidative phosphorylation (give or take the oxygen available from myoglobin in the muscle), and the body's maximum rate of delivery of oxygen to everything is a hard limit on the oxygen delivered to an individual fiber.

    When I say the aerobic threshold, I'm being imprecise, because while VO2max is a limiting factor on oxidizing, it's not the only one. Just off the top of my head, other factors include:
    -specific rate of oxygen delivery (varies between muscle groups, probably between muscle fiber types)
    -availability of glucose (muscle glycogen stores, rate of glycogenolysis, liver glycogen stores and rate of transmission from liver to muscle)
    -rate of disposal of byproducts (carbon dioxide in particular)
    -the rate of oxidative phosphorylation itself

    So there are a few more caveats to bear in mind. It should be noted that glycogen stores are a volume constraint, not a rate constraint, and that I'd assume that rate of oxygen delivery, glucose delivery and byproduct disposal are reasonably strongly correlated.

    Now, the last - and most important - caveat relates to what exactly I mean by aerobic threshold. Theoretically, if the above list of issues is taken into account, VO2max should serve as the point up to which the body is fully metabolizing the byproducts of anaerobic glycolysis (that is, "operating aerobically"). In practical terms, though, other stuff gets in the way. Examples include:
    -Fatigue, particularly in the heart and lungs
    -Concentration gradients, particularly of lactic acid (I think it affects the rate of glycogenolysis at least, probably some other stuff as well)

    That list is obviously incomplete, and I'd welcome any other items you have for it.

    Anyways, there's the long of it.

    ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas
    I'm not really the one to talk to about fat burning, as I tend to not care all that much about my bodyfat%, but usually when I'm trying to trim any weight, I do it through diet and tend to stay on the same lifting plan or change to something low volume, high intensity, high frequency (something similar to what Pavel suggests, or Rippetoe, or really any classic 5x5 style).
    Makes sense, I suppose. If you do see anything, let me know?
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