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  1. Fighting Cephalopod is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/12/2008 12:04pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRuss
    See this post, particularly protocol #4.
    Any period /can/ be a "high intensity" interval if you're able to keep up that kind of output, but most people are not gonna be able to "sprint" for three minutes. Most conditioning coaches use very short intervals for good reason.
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  2. cuatro76 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/12/2008 12:06pm


     Style: Judo, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here's three articles about protein absorption. Whey protein absorbs the fastest at roughly 10g/hour for an average sized man.

    http://www.powerbar.com/ca/Nutrition...B-057B535E4283

    http://www.myfit.ca/archives/viewana...ein+Absorption

    http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/food-diet...bsorption.html
  3. BudoMonkey is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/12/2008 12:30pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Running is good. I would take their advice and add some circuits to your training on cardio day, or replace the running with it entirely if necessary for time constraints. I say, five rounds of- 10 straight jumps (knee to chest), 50 jumping jacks, 30 burpees, 60 crunches, 20 sprawls.

    That will do the trick.

    Regarding diet: I don't know why noone else mentioned this...but quit eating the beef patties. That stuff is a horrible lunch. Switch to chicken. Much less calories, fat and waaaay less cholesterol. Take in more greens too, broccoli is a great one. High in fibre, low in calories.

    A roundsteak is full of fat, only about 20-40 g of protein and cutting carbs is not the way to go. You just need to take them in with some smarts. Carbs repelenish your energy supplies, and are gonna be necessary to build muscle if you are working out hard. Eat good carbs- granola, whole grain breads, oats, etc., and plenty of them but only early in the day before 7:00 pm or so. For me, I find packing in alot of carbs during the day while I am still excercising helps me really speed up my metabolism. After 7, you can go with high-protein, low carb foods so that you don't pack on the pounds while yer sleeping.

    One more, very important question: Do you drink beer?
    "This is why we are here. Because the Martial Arts for too long have been cloaked in an unnecessary level of secrecy bordering on mysticism, and its in these shadows that the cockroaches love to hide. -Phrost"

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  4. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/12/2008 12:53pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fighting Cephalopod
    Any period /can/ be a "high intensity" interval if you're able to keep up that kind of output, but most people are not gonna be able to "sprint" for three minutes.
    The fourth protocol I referred to involved four minutes at 90-95% HRmax. Anything below 100% of VO2max is not what I'd consider a "sprint" because it's still taking place in the aerobic domain.

    Using HRmax and VO2max as a measurement of intensity only works up to HRmax and/or VO2max - that is, the aerobic threshold. I've seen studies phrase higher levels of exertion as "110% VO2max" and the like, meaning that the athlete's power output was 110% of their output at the aerobic threshold. If your measured heartrate is literally at 110% of HRmax, it's time to call an ambulance.

    The reason I mention this is that intervals of four minutes slightly below the aerobic threshold and intervals of ten to fifteen seconds somewhere significantly above it ("sprinting") are not the same exercise. Perhaps this is what you meant by saying that the former isn't HIIT - if so, I couldn't say one way or another.

    What I am saying is that there is evidence to suggest that both types of exercise have similar benefits in terms of VO2max and, consequently, exercise performance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fighting Cephalopod
    Most conditioning coaches use very short intervals for good reason.
    Care to elaborate?
  5. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/12/2008 12:59pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by BudoMonkey
    A roundsteak is full of fat, only about 20-40 g of protein
    It varies by the cut, but here's what I usually do:

    Beef, round, eye of round, separable lean only, trimmed to 1/8" fat, all grades, raw (USDA NND #23597): 22.60g protein, 3.00g fat per 100g
  6. Nemesai is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/12/2008 1:20pm


     Style: Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've been training a few guys lately, and obviously I want them to have the best results. I've looked into interval training a lot, and will ply some of it eventually.


    I've always done long distance roadwork as part of my training, usually 7.5 miles in something between an hour and 90 minutes. I was thinking that at some point I deplete my carb fuel, and start tapping straight into the potent energy held by fat.

    Is it possible that HIIT is far more effecient in a small time frame, but if you can run for an hour, that it may end up being more effective at targetting the fat? You never see any marathon runners with much packed away.
  7. Fighting Cephalopod is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/12/2008 2:17pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRuss
    The fourth protocol I referred to involved four minutes at 90-95% HRmax. Anything below 100% of VO2max is not what I'd consider a "sprint" because it's still taking place in the aerobic domain.

    Using HRmax and VO2max as a measurement of intensity only works up to HRmax and/or VO2max - that is, the aerobic threshold. I've seen studies phrase higher levels of exertion as "110% VO2max" and the like, meaning that the athlete's power output was 110% of their output at the aerobic threshold. If your measured heartrate is literally at 110% of HRmax, it's time to call an ambulance.

    The reason I mention this is that intervals of four minutes slightly below the aerobic threshold and intervals of ten to fifteen seconds somewhere significantly above it ("sprinting") are not the same exercise. Perhaps this is what you meant by saying that the former isn't HIIT - if so, I couldn't say one way or another.
    It is.

    What I am saying is that there is evidence to suggest that both types of exercise have similar benefits in terms of VO2max and, consequently, exercise performance.
    That's news to me; I'd like to see more wide-ranging experimental data. The benefits of shorter-term work intervals are pretty well-established, this is the first I've seen of anything like four minutes.

    Care to elaborate?
    The shorter the interval, the harder you can go. How important this is depends on if we'e talking about fat loss or performance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesai
    Is it possible that HIIT is far more effecient in a small time frame, but if you can run for an hour, that it may end up being more effective at targetting the fat? You never see any marathon runners with much packed away.
    As opposed to all those chubby sprinters?
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  8. Nemesai is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/12/2008 2:45pm


     Style: Boxing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fighting Cephalopod
    As opposed to all those chubby sprinters?
    I've got an idea, leave that last sentence off, and answer the fucking question.
  9. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/12/2008 3:01pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by cuatro76
    Here's three articles about protein absorption.
    Thank you. My compliments to your Google-fu.

    The first and third both resolve to this literature review (PDF). The section on the risks of excess protein consumption are interesting (and a bit worrying), but things start to fall apart at the "Protein Absorption Rates in Humans" section.

    In the 8-h period after meal ingestion, the amount of dietary nitrogen recovered in the ileum via blood sampling in the forearm vein was 279.6 1.3 mmol in the (P) group, 279.2 1.2 mmol in (PS), and 278.1 2.4 mmol in the (PF) group. This shows the true digestibility of exogenous milk protein nitrogen to be of the order of 94.6% with an average rate of protein absorption of 3.5 g/h (40).
    This appears to be a misrepresentation of this study.

    To make a car analogy, if I put one liter of gas in your car and tell you to start doing laps around a track at full speed, then come back eight hours later and notice that your gas tank is empty, can I then conclude that your car's maximum rate of gasoline absorption is 0.125L/h? No - it just ran out of gas.

    The maximum rate of digestion could be obtained by monitoring nitrogen in minus nitrogen out over the length of the small intestine ("ileal digestibility") under saturation conditions. We keep track of how much protein we've added to one end of the system and how much winds up on the other end, plot it over time, and take the slope of the curve to calculate our maximum uptake.

    If you don't trust my line of reasoning, ask yourself this: if we absorb whey the fastest, and we can only absorb about 10g of it per hour, and we're only ingesting it for 16 hours a day, that's only 160g of protein per day. Why would we need to worry about protein intake far in excess of this (see the section on "Maximal Rate of Urea Synthesis and Excretion")? If we can't absorb it, it never hits the bloodstream, and the worst it'll do is cause odd excretory patterns.
  10. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/12/2008 3:14pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesai
    I've got an idea, leave that last sentence off, and answer the fucking question.
    Well, it's kind of an important point. My opinion - please don't ask for a study to back this one up - is that people don't get skinny because they're running marathons competitively. They run marathons competitively because they're skinny. It's a self-selection thing. If you don't buy it, replace "running marathons competitively" with "playing center in basketball" and "skinny" with "tall". Yes, it's not an absolute rule (there's an established dietary protocol to bulk up for sumo, for instance), but it applies more often than not.

    As far as the rest of your theory... bodily energy is largely interchangeable (although I don't think humans can reaminate ammonia into amino acids). We can convert back and forth between fat, different types of carbohydrates, and phosphorylated molecules like phosphocreatine and ATP quite efficiently. This is why I don't subscribe to most of the theories that claim to "target" particular energy stores exclusively - there can be some truth to it, but in long-term equilibrium, energy is energy and the body will convert it back and forth.

    When training an energy system, we're usually trying to increase the maximum speed of a downward conversion, or increase the quantity of energy sources that can be downconverted more quickly (see this). When training for body composition improvement, we try to increase the body's metabolism (during and after bouts of exercise). It's not as important in this case what kind of energy we're drawing from, so long as 1) the body's consuming lots of it and 2) the body can restore supplies in time for the next bout.
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