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  1. Sakmongkol is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/10/2008 5:43pm


     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also feet just outside shoulder width pointing out 30 degrees might help you get more depth with less butt wink.
  2. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/10/2008 5:44pm

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     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Why ATG? You've read Rippetoe's work, so I imagine you know he himself doesn't advocate that. The range of motion and style of squat he instructs is similar enough in nature to a powerlifting style squat (given the depth of slightly below parallel rather than ATG and the low bar) that a flat soled shoe will do the trick.
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  3. Sakmongkol is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/10/2008 5:49pm


     Style: Muay Thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas
    Why ATG? You've read Rippetoe's work, so I imagine you know he himself doesn't advocate that. The range of motion and style of squat he instructs is similar enough in nature to a powerlifting style squat (given the depth of slightly below parallel rather than ATG and the low bar) that a flat soled shoe will do the trick.
    I meant ATG pretty loosely. Not the depth one would get with an oly style back squat but as deep below parrallel as is possible without losing pelvic tilt. This allows you to maximise hip drive. Sorry to be misleading, it was pretty inarticulate and lazy use of the word ATG.

    Rip advocates the use of shoes with a heel for squats and power cleans. At worst he suggests any shoe that won't move (i.e. isn't squishy) so wrestling shoes/chucks would definitely suffice... But if the OP suggested he was struggling with flexibility, a good pair of squatting shoes with a slight heel will allow the knee to travel further thus get greater depth without back rounding.
  4. Sakmongkol is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/10/2008 6:02pm


     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
  5. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/10/2008 6:12pm

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     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sakmongkol
    I meant ATG pretty loosely. Not the depth one would get with an oly style back squat but as deep below parrallel as is possible without losing pelvic tilt. This allows you to maximise hip drive. Sorry to be misleading, it was pretty inarticulate and lazy use of the word ATG.

    Rip advocates the use of shoes with a heel for squats and power cleans. At worst he suggests any shoe that won't move (i.e. isn't squishy) so wrestling shoes/chucks would definitely suffice... But if the OP suggested he was struggling with flexibility, a good pair of squatting shoes with a slight heel will allow the knee to travel further thus get greater depth without back rounding.
    But he also indicated he had an issue of falling forward, in which case a shoe with a heel will definitely not help this, but instead facilitate his falling forward.

    Amazingly, a pair of flat soled shoes will solve some of the flexibility problems as well. I know it did for me at least. Some below parallel box squatting can help as well.

    People have squatted 1200lbs in a pair of Chucks, so they can't be all that bad really.
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  6. Sakmongkol is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/10/2008 6:28pm


     Style: Muay Thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas
    But he also indicated he had an issue of falling forward, in which case a shoe with a heel will definitely not help this, but instead facilitate his falling forward.

    Amazingly, a pair of flat soled shoes will solve some of the flexibility problems as well. I know it did for me at least. Some below parallel box squatting can help as well.

    People have squatted 1200lbs in a pair of Chucks, so they can't be all that bad really.
    Chucks would best for powerlifting style squats. The heel would only be a hinderance in this case.

    It depends whether falling forward or flexibility are the greater problem. If its falling forward then sack off the shoes and curl your toes up. If its flexibility then I'd say get the shoes.
  7. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/10/2008 6:39pm

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     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Again, I feel the style of squat Rippetoe suggests is similar enough to the powerlifting style squat that flat soled shoes work.

    I mean, here he is demonstrating the squat

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwXy8Dlgvzo

    And during it, he's not going too terribly deep. Truthfully, that's just at powerlifting legal.
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  8. Sakmongkol is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2008 6:54am


     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Blocked becuase of work.

    Is that the one on the crossfit website, like 300 for 10? Yeah he does just dip below parrallel, however, he is wearing shoes with a heel.
  9. Sakmongkol is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2008 7:41am


     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Rip: "Chuckies are better than absolutely nothing, and better than running shoes with squishy soles. But they are not weightlifting shoes, and if you've ever read anything I've ever written about this, you'd know that I think a little heel is better for squatting and pulling than a flat sole."

    So I guess we were both right. You are just a lot stronger, guess I need to worry less about forum debate on shoe wear for weightlifting and lift more heavy weights.
  10. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/11/2008 9:11am

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sakmongkol
    I meant ATG pretty loosely. Not the depth one would get with an oly style back squat but as deep below parrallel as is possible without losing pelvic tilt. This allows you to maximise hip drive. Sorry to be misleading, it was pretty inarticulate and lazy use of the word ATG.

    Rip advocates the use of shoes with a heel for squats and power cleans. At worst he suggests any shoe that won't move (i.e. isn't squishy) so wrestling shoes/chucks would definitely suffice... But if the OP suggested he was struggling with flexibility, a good pair of squatting shoes with a slight heel will allow the knee to travel further thus get greater depth without back rounding.
    That's strange because I though I read his work suggesting a flat shoe such as wrestling shoes or chucks. I believe (IIRC) him on youtube and on crossfit articles advocating that.

    The thing is, using a heel to add drive is very different from using a heel to hide flexibility problems. The former is a tool, the later is a clutch, and a very bad at that. I would be hard pressed to believe a oly lifter uses a heel shoe to compensate an inflexibility (dorsiflexion and/or glute/hamstring inflexibility) the can (and should) work on, barring an injury.

    Not that I'm suggesting you implied this, mind you, just to argue that such usage of a heel shoe is not in the best interest of someone that has a dorsiflexion or glute/hamstring inflexibility.

    The OP needs to, unequivocally, work on his flexibility. And it's really not that hard. Take two weeks off heavy squatting to do squat stretches, dorsiflexion stretches and glute/hamstring/hip flexor stretches every morning and every night (check www.exrx.net for instructions), followed by 3 sets of high volume (20-30 sets), low intensity squats (just the bar) using an assortment of stances: very wide (powerlifting), shoulder-width and narrow.

    Each stance would allow for a different depth, and the OP should just try crank each rep as deep as safely possible. Repetition is king for this particular purpose. Two other high-volume/low-intensity drills for flexibility and mobility come to mind as well.

    1. Bodyweight squatting in front of a wall. Stand in front of a wall, with your toes maybe 4 to 7 inches away from it. Then squat down, making sure no part of your body (face or knees) ever touch the wall. Squat as deep as possible (with each rep, you should be able to squat deeper.) One set powerlifting stance, one set shoulder width and one set narrow, at least. Each set with a high # of reps (20-30)

    2. Snatch-grip behind-the-neck overhead press (using a dowel or a PVC pipe) from deep squatting position (powerlifting, shoulder-width and narrow). You basically take either stance and squat down as deeply as possible while holding the dowel/PVC behind your neck, snatch-grip width. Once you squat down, stay there and begin the behind-the-neck overhead presses. Aim for 20. This forces you to move your upper body while stretching your lower body in a squatting position.
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