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  1. #1

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    An interesting analysis of how Karate techniques get screwed up

    http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/Technique.htm

    If you go to this link, you can see a side by side comparison between two variations of what was originally the same karate technique. This discussion starts around the photos.

    While I do not endorse everything McYoung says (I think he's too negative about MMA). In my relatively inexperienced eyes what follows appears to be an excellent discussion about how a particular technique is changed to generate a different attribute, tweaked, patched to solve problems which will arise and produces a much inferior result.

    Comments?

  2. #2
    TheRuss's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I especially liked this part:

    In forms competition, body movement is routinely sacrificed. This is to say that a person takes a stance and then proceeds to do incredibly fast hand and arm movement. He can do so because he is operating from a stationary and stable base. From this base, his hands can move with blinding speed. The problem is, without his body mass behind the moves, there is no power. Power comes from accelerating mass, not speed alone. But, this incredibly fast (and precise) hand and arm movement looks REALLY good and wins competitions. Which is why it has become so popular.
    I know the flashy hand razzle-dazzle used to really impress me, even though I should have known better.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel Browning
    http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/Technique.htm

    If you go to this link, you can see a side by side comparison between two variations of what was originally the same karate technique. This discussion starts around the photos.

    While I do not endorse everything McYoung says (I think he's too negative about MMA). In my relatively inexperienced eyes what follows appears to be an excellent discussion about how a particular technique is changed to generate a different attribute, tweaked, patched to solve problems which will arise and produces a much inferior result.

    Comments?

    I dont know if it means anything the first block is the TaeKwondo and the second way is the Japanese Karate version . I dont know if he is subconsciously saying Japanese Karate is better than TaeKwondo.

    Having taken both Korean and Japanes styles , TaeKwondo uses a lot of walking stances wheras my Shotokan uses deeper stances. I get the impression that the Korean style because they favor kicking techniques much more than the hand techniques tend not to pay as much attention attention to the hand techniques as much as the Japanese style.

    Just my own opinion based on my own experience.

  4. #4

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    TKD is an adoptation of Shotokan karate which has been greatly altered over time. So they do share some of the same forms. General Choi himself says that he earned a second dan in Shotokan.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel Browning
    TKD is an adoptation of Shotokan karate which has been greatly altered over time. So they do share some of the same forms. General Choi himself says that he earned a second dan in Shotokan.

    agreed but the Koreans made a conscious effort especially in modern Taekwondo which Gen Choi was what I call old Style "Korean karate " ITF to make it more Koreanized and take it away from the Japanese influences.

    Hence the newer TKD patterns TaeGueks hardly resemble the older Chun Ji patterns

  6. #6

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    Pretty good read and pretty spot on. The general principles that he's operating on are the same ones I encounter in MuayThai training all the time.... There's more than 1 correct way to do a technique. While in MuayThai, you rarely see "flashiness" added to the moves due to them being proven ineffective in the ring, you are always encountering subtle variations on techniques due to coaches having different body types and different strengths. As the author says, some people are naturally faster, naturally stronger, etc.... and this effects the way a technique is performed. In the end, what matters is whether or not it works.

  7. #7
    1point2's Avatar
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    I like this portion, it's very true.

    Unfortunately for law enforcement/correctional officer, mental health orderlies and security personnel the problem is a little more immediate. That's because "departmentally approved techniques" are often intentionally gutted to make them less effective. That's right. Because someone upstairs is concerned that you'll hurt someone while trying to subdue them, an overwhelming majority of the techniques you have been trained in have been watered down to protect the institution. The components that would make them effective have been intentionally removed. This makes fixing the problems even more important because, unlike martial artists, techniques failing to perform will cost you pain, blood and injury when trying to subdue someone on the fight.
    I tried to teach a school psychologist a bunch of come-alongs, holds, etc....and damn I was depressed when he ran me through A) the regulations he was bound by, and B) the moves he was taught. Supposedly you can copyright martial arts moves, if they are specific enough ("place your fingers on their fourth vertebrae..."). Unsubstantiated by that's what the district paid tens of thousands of dollars for.

  8. #8
    1point2's Avatar
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    He disagrees with traditional judo doctrine...

    We'll use a judo throw as an example. A proper throw involves entering into the correct range and breaking a person's balance/structure. Once this is achieved then the person is accelerated/thrown through your body's movement. (thus giving you the formula: Enter, break, throw). These components all build on each other, but each is effective in their own right. And since they work on the principles of physics are not only effective by themselves, but easily demonstrable.
    Kuzushi is usually understood to come before tsukuri, not after.

    EDIT: I'm sorry, that's nitpicking. He has a lot of good points and I like the writing.
    Last edited by 1point2; 9/06/2008 7:48pm at .

  9. #9
    DerAuslander's Avatar
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    The idea that deep stances from Shotokan are better than walking stances from TKD is stupid, idiotic, and once again, stupid.

    The stances in Shotokan & Japanese karate in general were elongated for purely aesthetic reasons by Gigo Funakoshi, and have nothing to do with actual fighting.

    The Cheonji patterns have next to no relation to the Taegeuk patterns, and event less relation when it comes to their development.

    Comparison of such issues has absolutely nothing to do with power generation within movement, what MacYoung is addressing, as the individual forms matter less than how one performs them.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108
    The idea that deep stances from Shotokan are better than walking stances from TKD is stupid, idiotic, and once again, stupid.

    The stances in Shotokan & Japanese karate in general were elongated for purely aesthetic reasons by Gigo Funakoshi, and have nothing to do with actual fighting.

    The Cheonji patterns have next to no relation to the Taegeuk patterns, and event less relation when it comes to their development.

    Comparison of such issues has absolutely nothing to do with power generation within movement, what MacYoung is addressing, as the individual forms matter less than how one performs them.

    Yeah I just made that up no Actually TaeKwondo master Yeon Hwan Park is the one who told me they designed the TaeGueks to make it decidedly Koreanized and they felt the other forms were to much Japanese in appearance.

    I never said which stances are better . Alot of Okinawan styles use shorter stances than Shotokan

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