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  1. The Wastrel is offline
    The Wastrel's Avatar

    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2003 1:41pm

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Fernando,
    I'm just trying to explain that this idea of sensitivity is not and Asian invention. From what I've seen chi sao is a silly hand game that doesn't recruit the lower body...*Puts on Peril-Sensitive Sunglasses*
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  2. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2003 1:44pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Did you read that thread? It's not even going to be a throwdown really I was just hoping to meet some Boston area posters when I will be up there. Also we might swing by Jamokes place.
  3. Balloonknot is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2003 1:46pm


     Style: lame

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It certainly is tempting to meet Jamoke though; the man, the myth; the machine!! Also, I like Danvers. It's a nice little north shore town. Maybe we could sit in on one of his classes?
  4. Bang! is offline
    Bang!'s Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2003 3:40am

    supporting memberBullshido Newbie
     Style: Wu Style TCC + BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by fernando
    how does push hands help in someone in fighting
    Various forms of push hands exist but all of them (at least in the way that I am taught) are designed to train specific principals such as sensitivity, moving around an opponent, etc. Push hands is not sparring--it is not a contest. Instead, it provides a set of parameters for two people to work within in order to facilitate learning; full out sparring--or even grappling--is usually too open-ended to concentrate on specific things.

    Finally, each person should gain a sense of their partner's limits and push them as close to the edge as possible without going over. Obviously, that's not what's going on in the video, which I assume is more of a demonstration than anything else.
  5. Mufi is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2003 7:03am

    supporting member
     Style: Various

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'd be a little suspicious if you have to learn an entire long form before a teacher is willing to push hands with you. Forms are important but you'll find that your posture and root connection would see a very quick improvement if you just did some free push against a resisting partner. At an early stage there won't be much elegance in what your doing and little sensitivity but it will force a quick rate of improvement.

    The best teachers can take anyone of any size regardless of experience and work with them. The ones you have to be carefull of are those that travel with their own students and only demonstrate techniques on them.
  6. imawimp is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2003 1:01pm


     Style: TAi Chi Chaun

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    While Im usually "pro tai chi" for these types of postings, there is a point about 3/4 thru the clip where the white guy "jumps" before any contact is made with his opponent. It could be an example of explosive chi, fa-jing, or it could be an example of lousy scripting?

    Ive seen a few guys do push hands, and it is fairly impressive to me. Lots of leverage type moves, locks etc. Not terribly aggressive though. No offense - but most people on this board probably wouldnt find much to like in it. The guy in this clip sems pretty good, still that one spot makes me wonder.

    The point of push hands in tai chi is similar to the point of sticky hands in wing chun. Not exactly as a martial application but geared more towards teaching the student how to detect and predict what the other guys about to do.

    Personally Ive done very little of it, but thats close to how it was explained to me. If my description seems wrong, it more likely the fault of my poor short term memory then the fault of my instructor.
  7. Balloonknot is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/16/2003 10:56am


     Style: lame

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I see nothing wrong with learning the form first. It builds your leg muscles, enhances your root, and is the foundation for everything else to come after (weapons, 2 man, etc). It makes perfect sense to me.
  8. Mufi is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    12/16/2003 2:58pm

    supporting member
     Style: Various

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree, there's nothing wrong with learning the form first it that's what you enjoy doing. Don't forget though that the form is just an exercise. The best way to get good at a thing is to go and do that thing with someone who is better than you at it. If you do lots of push hands with someone who is better than you, you will get good at push hands. If you do a load of submission fighting with someone then you'll get good at submission fighting. If you go out every Saturday night and pick a fight with someone, you'll get very good at "street" fighting (N.B. Not a recomended training method for normal "sane" human beings. Included to illustrate a point only)

    You may choose to suppliment any of these things to train applicable attributes i.e. strength, sensitivity , posture etc. but you still have to learn to use those attributes in a particular context.
  9. Balloonknot is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/16/2003 3:37pm


     Style: lame

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Uhm...........ok.
  10. Strangler2 is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/20/2003 3:44pm


     Style: Street

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Interesting discussion below. In fact the whole thread is worth looking at.:
    Anyway, all this boils down to the fact that you need form to learn how to move and you need to study it's application to understand it (push hands) - one helps the other. If your goal is martial accopmlishment then you need both - if you're goal is to 'feel good' and do some 'soft exercise' then emphasis on push hands can be greatly reduced.
    With regard to Yang Cheng Fu, there is an outer circle and an inner circle, pubic teaching and private teaching, general students and indoor students. I never doubted that training in Yang Cheng Fu style can be used for fighting nor do I subscribe to EM's take that Yang Cheng Fu is for health and Old Yang style is for martial arts (Yang Cheng Fu, as I stated somewhere, also trains the full range, including fajing expression in single moving). Its unfortunate that much of the basic conditioning remains behind closed doors but that is simply the way it is and I really don't know how one can open that door. Its a real yin/yang because the traditional material doesn't seem to hold up well in an era of commercialization, like boxing or wrestling.

    I don't worry about this fighting argument or can you use it. I came to the arts rather late and saw a lot of guys who never did the martial arts that could really kick ass and would kick the ass of most the martial artists today. Most weight-lifted, could throw a punch, and probably picked a bit of wrestling from the old high school days. What made them a fighter was their state of mind and their state of mind was simple: Engage in a fight with me and I'll kill you.

    Taiji, if anything, would simply bring them refinement. On the other hand, if you don't have that type of mentality, I'm not sure any martial art can transform you from a kitten into a tiger.

    What's good about many of the internal arts is that it provides an option with regard to conditioning and fitness and fighting skills. Not everyone has to go down the same path.

    My own speculation is that those who simply practiced the taiji form, and could fight, already possessed considerable fighting abilities and attitude. We seldom know much about those pre-taiji qualities.

    Their fighting ability preceded their acquisition of taiji or any other art. Just my take
    My teacher told me that when you first start freestyle pushing hands you want to win, but then you realise that there's no point trying to 'win' when you're a beginner. As soon as you realise you're going to 'lose' every time you stop caring about the outcome and relax.
    http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/y...02612;start=45
    Last edited by Strangler2; 12/20/2003 3:49pm at .
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