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  1. Kentucky Fried Chokin is offline
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    Portrait of a BJJer as a Young Man

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    Posted On:
    8/30/2008 5:21pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    The dos and doníts of submission grappling

    I found an interesting article in Gracie Magazine where "Standouts – of gi-on and no-gi competitions – evaluate which Jiu-Jitsu moves adapt best to the ADCC style". (http://www.graciemag.com/news/149/AR...006-02-10.html)

    What I found intersting was which moves certain fighters found to be useful/useless and how much they contradict each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcio Pe de Pano (Over 98kilo champion – ADCC 2003)
    When things get hot, every well done move works. So much that you see people tap out from everything in the ADCC. For this Abu Dhabi [2005’s, held last May] I’m only training with the gi. I had started to prioritize no-gi but then realized what you need to do is have a keen Jiu-Jitsu, be confident and go after it. A move I usually apply in submission grappling is the katagatami. The guy wants to shove his arm to leave and you end up making some pressure that usually works. A move that never works? I don’t think there is one. There are some tough ones, though. The triangle, for example, I find a bit complicated. If you do attain it, you win, but it’s hard to tighten it, because if it’s a clever opponent, it’s a slippery move, especially if the guy stands up.
    Somewhat unhelpful quote from Pe de Pano, but I found it interesting that he's only training in a gi for subgrappling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ze Mario Sperry (Absolute champion in ADCC ’98 and superfight winner in ’99 and 2000)
    A move I find even easier to use in no-gi than in Jiu-Jitsu is the guillotine, since the hands’ movement in order to control the foe’s neck is facilitated both by sweat and lack of friction from the opponent’s gi. Now, one move I’m always very cautious about using in no-gi is the back-grab, by attacking the adversary’s waist. In my fight with Roger Gracie in 2003’s ADCC he made use of that position to give me a reversed armlock. As there was no cloth for me to get a grip and block my arm, there was no avoiding the attack and I gave the position away.
    I agree with his comment about the guillotine. I find almost all chokes are easier no-gi because of the sweat. Something that has been mentioned many times here on BS. I can't comment about the back grab since I'm not a wrestler.

    Quote Originally Posted by VŪtor Shaolin (Third place in the under 76kilo category in 2003)
    One position that works very well in no-gi comes from wrestling: the armdrag. The opponent’s elbow ends up serving as a grip, it substitutes the cloth. With the armdrag you easily get to the foe’s back, whence you can go on to many other moves, including the souple. On the other hand, one move I don’t advise is the foot-lock. You never know how flexible the adversary’s foot is – some fighters simply do not resign in that position. Some even offer the foot as bait in order to reverse the position. Also, you end up giving the opponent your own foot, and he might counter-attack with the same move.
    I've had the opposite expirence as Shaolin. I'm fine with the armdrags because I grab behind the elbow when I do them, but I think leg locks are much easier no-gi because the guy can't grab your lapels or sleeve to keep you from extending and I've never had a problem with some being too flexible. Maybe I'm just better than Shaolin (doubtful).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ricardo Arona (98kilo and absolute champion in 2001; superfight winner in 2003)
    In submission I really like using the armbar-in-guard. Wrestlers usually forget about their arm when they pass guard, they tend to support the palms of their hands on the ground… I’ve seen Tito Ortiz, Mark Kerr, Coleman and many others make the same mistake – and that’s when I attack with the armbar. As to the move I find inefficient in submission grappling, I’d choose the omoplata – a move that requires too many grips. After all, I think the adversary can escape on the base of the explosion and end up passing guard.
    This is the first time I've ever heard someone say that a joint lock is easier no-gi. It could be that he just means that armbarring inexpirence wrestlers is easy, but what's the point of stating that? I wholehartedly agree about the omoplata is just too easy to slip out of without the gi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renzo Gracie (under 76kilo champion in 1998’s and 2000’s ADCCs)
    The move that works in no-gi is the one the opponent gives you. Every time there is a chance of surprising the enemy you must tighten the attack as much as possible, not worrying whether you’ll waste too much energy… One of ADCC’s most common submissions is the triangle. Fighters usually lower their head a lot while passing guard, which makes the triangle possible. I really like that move, as long as you believe in it – you must tighten it 100%. A move that can go wrong is the guillotine. When you try that choke, the opponent has a chance of getting a takedown and scoring if he is not submitted. Hence the need to believe in the attacks.
    I completely agree with the statement about the triangle. Like most chokes, I think they're easier to get no-gi because of the sweat, but I find it's intersting that he disagrees with Sperry about the guillotine. Especially since he's he won a fight (MMA) with a flying guillotine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcelo Garcia (Under 76kilo champion in 2003 – deemed most technical athlete in the event)
    Two moves that work very well in no-gi are guard repositions and the rear-naked choke. Repositions become easy because there is no way for the opponent to stall, he must let his game loose and go along. The rear-naked choke works for me not only because I deem myself agile, but also because you can go straight to it, without worrying about hooks or points. While the opponent starts worrying about not yielding points, I’m already getting ready to tighten his neck, even at the cost of not scoring back hooks. That which doesn’t work in submission grappling, in my opinion, is the open guard, because you can’t resort to the gi to control your opponent’s arms and so you get too vulnerable to foot and heel locks.
    Garcia actually goes against the old BJJ mantra of "position before submission" with his 'choke before securing both hooks' advice. But as we all know, he's had lots of sucess with it. He also (sort of) contradicts Shaolin with the leg lock advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexandre Soca (Under 65kilo champion in 1998 – deemed most technical athlete in the event)
    To me, there is no Jiu-Jitsu move that can’t be efficiently used in no-gi. My advice to submission fighters if to use a lot of the basic Jiu-Jitsu moves. The foot-lock is a move I really like using. If it is well performed, not even sweat can stop it.
    Sort of useless advice in my opinion other than he also disagrees with Shaolin.

    Someone that wasn't mentioned, but who's advice I find relevant is Robert Drysdale (the 2007 absolute champion) who in his 9th Dimension DVD on back attacks starts out by saying that in no-gi competition side control is useless because it's too easy to escape when everyone is sol slippery. So he trys to force his opponents to turtle and takes their back.

    What do other people think of the article and my comments and what has been their expirence?
    Last edited by Kentucky Fried Chokin; 8/30/2008 5:27pm at .
  2. SuperGuido is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/30/2008 5:35pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Good stuff. While we could find the quotes and opinions individually, I find it helpful seeing all of their opinions laid out in one post. It provides some perspective.
    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus
    Helio was submitted by Kimura
  3. Kentucky Fried Chokin is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/30/2008 5:44pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Satori
    Good stuff. While we could find the quotes and opinions individually, I find it helpful seeing all of their opinions laid out in one post. It provides some perspective.
    If you find any other quotes, please add them.
  4. Kentucky Fried Chokin is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/30/2008 6:19pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by partyboy
    leg locks in no-gi are usually ridiculously easy to get out of... once you get a good sweat going, a good kick on the other guy's ass usually gets you out of them
    I see what you mean. You're right, they're easy to defend if the person immediatley defends them. Usually when get someone in a leg locks it's because they're also attacking my legs.
  5. Kokujin is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/30/2008 7:37pm


     Style: BJJ(blue)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I for once find the guillotine choke kinda low percentage when done no-gi! The sweet is something that makes pulling your hear that much easier...and without the gi to hamper and regain hold of your opponent, he'll just pop his head out!
  6. pauli is offline

    i keep tryin to spar, but nothin happens!

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    Posted On:
    8/30/2008 8:19pm

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     Style: karate / bjj

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    if do right, no can defend. no gi, you've got the mobility to get that guillotine on right. if you're lazy, it won't work.
  7. junkielectric is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/31/2008 12:03am


     Style: Judo/BJJ/couple months MT

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Side control is useless what? Side control is my go to tactic no-gi. You just have to keep repositioning and attacking the arm.
  8. Kentucky Fried Chokin is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/31/2008 12:17am

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    Quote Originally Posted by junkielectric
    Side control is useless what? Side control is my go to tactic no-gi. You just have to keep repositioning and attacking the arm.
    Maybe useless is the wrong word. I'd have to consult the DVD for his exact wording, but he considered it at least considerably less effective. I agree with you. I just constantly reposition to keep them in side control until I catch them or move to mount.
  9. Red512S is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/31/2008 2:48pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don’t feel like Ricardo Arona was trying to say that the armbar is easier without a gi. I think he was simply saying he likes it as a go-to move when opponents aren’t technical enough when passing the guard. Good variety of stuff Raz, thanks.

    Dave
  10. KayRoc is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/31/2008 3:57pm


     Style: Crappling (BJJ Hiatus)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by partyboy
    leg locks in no-gi are usually ridiculously easy to get out of... once you get a good sweat going, a good kick on the other guy's ass usually gets you out of them
    I say ha! You must be going against guys with sucky leglocks. I rarely lose mine when I commit to them.
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