Second opinion - sparring video from toronto throwdown

**2groggy** · Posted On: 8/25/2008 10:12pm

Originally Posted by f4n4n

Can you tell the TKD guy if he is going with paldos all over the place he should do them correct and put his hip into the kick and follow through. Same mistake everywhere I go, people hitting "on the target" but you are supposed to go through, no wonder he did not do any damage.

We can't have it both ways. If it's LIGHT sparring, don't fault him for not kicking hard enough.

Yes, his hand techniques were wild haymakers, but the kicks were what i've seen from light sparring with TKD guys and no protective gear. When the put on the hogus (chest protectors), they kick a lot harder.

And, of course, the TKD habits leave them wide open to a sweep of the front leg and jab to the face.

**Sang** · Posted On: 8/25/2008 10:27pm

Originally Posted by 2groggy

We can't have it both ways. If it's LIGHT sparring, don't fault him for not kicking hard enough.

Wrong. If you are not using proper technique when you spar, you are not sparring right. It is possible to use proper technique without destroying the other person when you spar, how do you think the 250lbs guys spar the 150lbs guys without killing them in muay thai, throw tkd kicks? Using your hips is proper technique so there is no excuse for him throwing those ones, this is what f4n4n was getting at.

**2groggy** · Posted On: 8/25/2008 10:48pm

Sang, i re-read F4n4n's post and see what you mean. No arguement from me on the need for proper technique.

i do , however, want to add to your comments about backing up being better. As I see it you need a linear reaction to a circular attack and a circular reaction to a linear attack. For example, against a push kick, you are better to move sideways, off the line of force and stay close enough to counter, somehow.

Hype's attacks are almost all circular, or roundhouse. So to get away from the line of force you can move back or forward. if you retreat, you put yourself out of range to counter attack and just keep running away forever. if you move to the side of a full force committed roundhouse kick, you still get hit. That leaves only moving forward. you'll catch a knee to the upper arm, but not a boot to the head. And you can punch in the head a few times because he doesn't keep his guard up.

i've sparred a bunch of decent tkd guys. you have to get inside their normal long range comfort zone.

it's late in this continent, so i'm off to bed. i'm sure that you have some good comments, but i won't see them until tomorrow

**Sang** · Posted On: 8/25/2008 10:57pm

Yeah i can see how you mis-interpreted his post, it was a small one. Pressuring TKD fighters is definately the way to do it, but as a bunch of posters have said before, it is pretty much impossible to do on the mats.. they skip back and once you hit the edge of the mat the fight resets in the middle. Unless you fight in a ring, full contact or allow takedowns it is not going to happen.

The same thing happens in a lot of my spars since i fight at range (massive height and reach advantage), it really is unfair to the people i spar who need to get close to me since it does not mimic real fighting in any way. It also annoys other people on the mat who you end up running into. For this reason the person who likes to be mobile and work on the outside has to make a conscious effort to stay within a certain ring-sized area or the spar is a waste of time.

**Angry-Monkey** · Posted On: 8/25/2008 11:39pm

Originally Posted by Khun Kao

True, but there was no MMA in the sparring match until just before the very end. While I realize that an opponent who always retreats from you in a non-confined area is very hard to shoot in on, I never saw anything that even constituted an attempt at a takedown until (again) right before the end of the round.

I train for MMA though, but I understand your perspective. I don't always spar like that. As mentioned previously, I had just gone through 2 hours of training, was exhausted and the guy was windmilling at my head, so I decided to play more defensively.

Originally Posted by Khun Kao

The only time this really happened was when you finally backed him against the wall.

yeah, see the other video from the event for a better demonstration of what I meant
YouTube - Toronto Throwdown Aug 2008 Part 2

Originally Posted by Khun Kao

Anyway, don't take what I'm saying the wrong way. I'm not trying to "attack" your performance, but give you food for thought on how you can look to improve. Sure, I'm speaking from the perspective of a Muay Thai guy and you're not necessarily looking to fight Muay Thai, but some of the underlying principles remain.

Understood, and I appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Khun Kao

You have to WILL yourself to keep your guard up.... It's ESSENTIAL! That applies to ANY type of realistic fighting (which is why I'm not a fan of Taekwondo). Start trying to find practical methods to train yourself to move circularly or laterally rather than just straight backwards. Learn to minimize your movements while still avoiding strikes rather than blocking them. You have to improve your timing so that you can counter effectively right as you make your opponent miss rather than after he's jumped back out of the way....

yeah, that's stuff I've been trying to work on and will continue to work on, thanks again for your tips, criticisms and suggestions.

I think what has been misunderstood is that the original purpose of my posting the video in the thread was to get an opinion on who had the "upperhand" in the match. I know it's silly to think of a sparring match in that way, but I had heard indirectly that the guy in the black tshirt was very proud of himself and thought that he had dominated me in some way. When I saw the video initially I had to exact opposite impression.

I obviously was watching the video with the same bias that he must have been and in the end its obvious to me now that neither of us really mounted enough offense for anyone to really have an opinion on it.

I never really wanted this thread to be about a critique of our technique or strategies, as honestly it really isn't an accurate assessment of my abilities and who knows if it shows his.

That being said, I know I kicked his ass.

**Anna Kovacs** · Posted On: 8/26/2008 12:59am

If we pretend this was a real match he won on points.

**Anna Kovacs** · Posted On: 8/26/2008 1:22am

The thing to keep in mind is that even if someone isn't hurting you or even hitting you clean it never looks good to stand back and play defensively.

**Khun Kao** · Posted On: 8/26/2008 3:14pm

I concur with AnnaTrocity.... Whether you were being affected by his attacks or not, he was the one who was landing strikes, albeit ineffectively, while you were mostly just backing away. The few opportunities you took to assert yourself didn't truly end up demonstrating much.

So that being said, I can see why he "thinks" he had the upper hand. You simply didn't do enough to show otherwise.

However, I also see where you're coming from. It should be obvious to all of us that his attacks really had little real effect on you..... Nonetheless, he landed more attacks than you did.

Just bide your time, train, and look for an opportunity to spar him again and show him the error of his ways... :)

**Goju - Joe** · Posted On: 8/26/2008 3:17pm

I want to know why you let him keep that stupid headlock from under side control in you and didn't push it off and arm bar him

**Torakaka** · Posted On: 8/26/2008 4:06pm

Originally Posted by Angry-Monkey

We have a difference of opinion then when it comes to defense. I've never trained or competed in muay thai, but in mma you cant just stand your ground and cover or you're going to get taken down. That, and I love it when people just stand there turtling and let me hit them. Not much of a fan of Lyoto Machida I take it?

I don't think Khun Kao was really suggesting that you turtle up. Turtling up in muay thai is stupid too because you're not really defending yourself and you're letting your opponent do whatever they want. Having a solid stance doesn't mean standing there with your hands glued to your head, it's all about having balance and keeping your hands in a position to allow you to easily defend AND attack. If your hands are down by your hips then it's going to take that much longer just for you to throw a punch.

Honestly I have a habit of going all sugar shane and letting my left hand drop some times, though it's mainly just bad habit more so than me being too tired to keep my hands up.

Originally Posted by Angry-Monkey

The leg grab was explained earlier.

Now I can understand being annoyed with TKD people, but c'mon now. It's a bit juvenile to have so much attitude when getting together with people to spar. The TKD guy is being a jerk himself and obviously treating this sparring session like a fight (the dude is swinging for the fences), but you would be served by focusing more on really working. Being nonchalant during a sparring session isn't really helping you or or your sparring partner.

Originally Posted by Angry-Monkey

edit: I'd like to point out that I agree that my hands were lower than they should have been. but don't understand why fatigue isn't a valid reason.

Fatigue is never a valid reason for doing anything.

Originally Posted by Angry-Monkey

Also, I'm not disagreeing with you that covering is a keystone in defense, but I'd rather not get hit if at all possible. The same way I'd prefer to step out of range of a leg kick rather than check it.

Avoiding damage is great and always preferred, obviously, but not at the expense of just letting yourself get forced straight back. If you just back up you're simply giving your opponent more room to attack and cutting off your own maneuverability (particularly if you're in a ring/cage).