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  1. romero is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/10/2003 3:23pm


     Style: kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    US and torture

    Some one on a thread asked in a defense of US policy where are the US torture chambers. As far as I can establish, there may not be chambers on US soil. The case of Guantanamo is unknown to me. There is ample evidence that the US government supports and aids other nations in torture. Here are a couple articles that support this assertation. By the way, over 10,000 Columbian army personel (current holder of the 'worst human rights record in South America) have been trained in the SOA at Ft. Benning.

    'HORROR ARCHIVES" YIELD S.O.A. TORTURE MANUAL

    Stella Calloni reports in the Fall 1994 issue of COVERT ACTION that among documents stashed in Paraguay's "Horror Archives" is a folder
    labeled "Confidential," containing a torture manual used at the U.S.Army School of the Americas.
    ----------------
    ..The same folder (marked "Confidential"), in a section labeled "instruction at the School of Americas," contains a manual teaching "interrogators" how to keep electric shock victims alive and responsive. The manual recommends dousing the victims' heads and bodies with salt water, and includes a sketch showing how this "treatment" should be carried out......

    and elsewhere

    The Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Ashcroft Justice Department are considering using torture as an approved policy of the United States against those in detention who assert their legal rights to remain silent. According to the Washington Post, the U.S. Government is discussing using "pressure tactics, such as those employed occasionally by Israeli interrogators, to extract information" from persons in their custody in the Government's broad reaching "terrorism" investigation.

    A senior FBI official told the Post, "We're into this thing for 35 days and nobody is talking...frustration has begun to appear." This disturbing revelation appears in an article in the October 21, 2001 edition of the Washington Post. This information is likely being discussed now to gauge the public's response to the use of torture, or to prepare the public for plans to use Israeli-style interrogation in the United States.

    According to a 1998 report by B'Tselem, an Israel based human rights organization, Israeli interrogators used "routine torture" in their interrogation of Palestinians. The interrogation tactic uses a combination of sleep deprivation, isolation, psychological torment and direct physical force including beatings, kickings, violent shaking, painful shackling and use of objects designed or used to inflict extreme pain. An interrogee may be shackled to a specially modified chair (to cause pain) with his or her head covered with a filthy sack that has an overwhelming stench of vomit or human refuse. Interrogations routinely span months, with constant intermittent periods of interrogation and force lasting for days without interruption.

    Israeli authorities, like the U.S. representatives quoted in the Washington Post article, justify these methods as necessary on national security grounds. In addition to the fact that torture is a gross violation of human rights and U.S. law, torture is not a reliable method of extracting information, resulting often in false confessions and risk to the lives of innocents and civilians wrongly charged or suspected

    "Que mi sange sea la similla de libertad" Romero
  2. Justme is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/10/2003 3:25pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: none

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I asked the question, and as a voter if I found this to be true, that we were torturing people I would not support it.
  3. LLL is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/10/2003 3:30pm

    supporting member
     Style: None

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I can tell you, that the Guantanamo stuff pisses off people a LOT outside the US.

    Probably inside too, but I really can't understand where Bush & pals are aiming with that stuff...
  4. Justme is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/10/2003 3:32pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: none

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Keep combatants from combating.
  5. romero is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/10/2003 3:49pm


     Style: kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I must admit that I have some sympathy for getting information out of terrorists. To torture people to keep Central American coffee workers from unionizing is another matter.
  6. fragbot is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/10/2003 4:02pm


     Style: japanese jujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Of course it does

    Originally posted by LLL
    I can tell you, that the Guantanamo stuff pisses off people a LOT outside the US.
    Perhaps there's a better solution than holding non-uniformed combatants indefinitely, but no one's convinced me of it yet.

    We have committed ideologues who aren't soldiers and who have been trained to commit violent crime on a large scale (if you think this description is inaccurate, please explain why). (Un)fortunately, they have yet to succeed in their goal for wanton destruction so they can't be charged with a crime.

    Would it be better if they were let go?

    Overall, I think terrorist organizations have been able to exploit a loophole in the way Western society looks at this problem. They're sorta armies but w/o a country and they're sorta criminal organizations but they're externally violent instead of internally. Organized crime organizations as "self-cleaning ovens" are, in most cases, peripheral to the society as a whole. Furthermore, their violence is usually done in ones and twos and targets other criminals. Terrorists attacks, on the other hand, are usually broader in scope and often target random victims. Getting back to my original point, we are evolving the tools necessary to deal with this issue on a larger scale.
  7. LLL is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/10/2003 4:12pm

    supporting member
     Style: None

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No-one is asking you to let them go.

    The question is -> are they POWs, or are they regular criminals?

    -> there are rules fore threating both... but none for 'just some guys we want to keep here'...
  8. fragbot is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/10/2003 5:13pm


     Style: japanese jujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    I already answered your question

    Originally posted by LLL
    The question is -> are they POWs, or are they regular criminals?
    I already addressed this by noting they effectively fit in neither of those two categories.

    They probably fit most closely with the organized crime paradigm but, for reasons I stated earlier, they're much more dangerous since they don't just primarily target other mooks and are ideologically-motivated instead of greedy.

    I'll re-phrase what I wrote before: do you see any other valid* option besides indefinite, preventive detention?

    -> there are rules fore threating both... but none for 'just some guys we want to keep here'...
    Okay, so you'd like some rules. As long as the numbers are reasonably small, I'm okay with them remaining in a legal grey area. Hell, we're doing the world a public service, what rational person would want them in country?

    *I included this word specifically because the "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" pre-frontal lobotomy option would presumably be viewed unfavorably.
  9. LLL is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/10/2003 5:29pm

    supporting member
     Style: None

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Okay, so you'd like some rules."

    I didn't say that, nor did I mean it.

    I personally don't like any rules at all, but if they exist, then they should be the same for everyone; at the moment they aren't.

    "Hell, we're doing the world a public service, what rational person would want them in country?"

    Several countries have asked for their citizens to be returned from Guantanamo, or at least given a fair trial, to no extent... Only Americans are rational?

    Why isn't J.W. Lindh in Guantanamo anymore?

    Hmm... maybe, because he was an American.

    YOU say they are monsters & terrorists & ****, but that's your opininon...
  10. fragbot is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/10/2003 5:59pm


     Style: japanese jujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by LLL
    "Okay, so you'd like some rules."

    I didn't say that, nor did I mean it.

    I personally don't like any rules at all, but if they exist, then they should be the same for everyone; at the moment they aren't.
    If they were soldiers, they'd be treated as such. The same is true if they were obvious criminals on trial for a crime. People who are attending terrorist training camps outside of the US' jurisdiction don't belong in either of these categories. As I've argued earlier (and that you've essentially ignored), they're extremely dangerous people who *cannot* be allowed to commit the crimes for which they've prepared.

    Again, what would you suggest we do beyond what we're doing?

    Several countries have asked for their citizens to be returned from Guantanamo, or at least given a fair trial, to no extent... Only Americans are rational?
    Yeah, and I suspect, in some cases, they'll be shipped to various places.

    Why isn't J.W. Lindh in Guantanamo anymore?
    How the f*** would I know? Probably because there are specific laws dealing with American citizens who take up arms against the US.

    YOU say they are monsters & terrorists & ****, but that's your opininon...
    What do you think happened? Do you think we just strolled around Afghanistan randomly picking people for fun?

    Concisely and specifically explain what you think should be done with those people. Put bluntly, what the f*** would satisfy a Finn?

    I'm starting to think we should resettle them to Finland. Neh, you'd welcome them with open arms.
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