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  1. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/01/2008 5:21pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by variance
    maybe its too early in the morning
    but uh... isn't 20 pullups or chinups pretty damn easy?
    You'd like to think so, but next time you're hangin' out with some of the top Sayoc guys... well, you know. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for 20 pull-ups. I wouldn't even bother waiting for 5.
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  2. mojo23 is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/02/2008 8:24am


     Style: PTK / MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    Now that thats settled, maybe we should re-analyze the OP.

    He says his form was correct but that he could not actually wield the swords with any skill to be effective.

    he said, "the swords were heavy enough that I realized I'd have no hope of wielding one in combat, and it made me wonder how effective a strike I could REALLY make with rattan."

    So I return again to question the technique itself. He asks for help with "strength" training, but maybe that is not the limit.
    How did I not get any email notifications on this?

    Anyway, the problem was not that I couldn't wield with enough SKILL, but with enough SPEED. Anyway, decided that the thing to do was a) extra push-ups and b) use progressively heavier sticks. When I first learn a technique I start with my 3/4" rattan sticks, then I move up to the 1 1/4" ones. I've also got a pair of 1" diameter tivar rods which are pretty heavy. I plan to use those when I feel my wrists and elbows are strong enough that I won't get a stress injury.
  3. RamsHead is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2008 4:39pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Tracy Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I find kettlebells increase wrist strength and flexibility as well as hand and forearm strengthening.
  4. Sun_Helmet is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/28/2008 10:05am


     Style: Sayoc Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    You'd like to think so, but next time you're hangin' out with some of the top Sayoc guys... well, you know. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for 20 pull-ups. I wouldn't even bother waiting for 5.

    That's an interesting blanket statement...



    Here's a recent pic of some of our top Sayoc Tactical Instructors... made up of SWAT, MMA, SF and former SEALs.

    JJ, don't get carried away with what Sayoc trolls cherry pick to put online. Riding that band wagon leads to embarrassing misconceptions. The only thing that makes it amusing is how fast they get exposed.
    20 Pullups or chinups is something I do all the time on the way to a total of 100 or 120 for the workout. Been in Sayoc for 20 plus years. I know three other top Sayoc guys who can probably do more on any given day.

    However, fitness and Practical proficiency are two different paths that MAY cross but are NOT dependent on one another. Especially if we are talking about real world street scenarios. ALL the top Sayoc guys have extremely quick knife work, no matter what size. In fact,for something like draw and accuracy times - I'd say they have faster quick draws than just about anyone who cares to put it on a shot timer to test.
    Last edited by Sun_Helmet; 9/28/2008 10:39pm at .
  5. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/29/2008 2:07am

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sun_Helmet
    That's an interesting blanket statement...



    Here's a recent pic of some of our top Sayoc Tactical Instructors... made up of SWAT, MMA, SF and former SEALs....
    Yeah, I know they get some guys from VB & Little Creek. HOWEVER, even in that pic that you posted, how many of them can do 20 pullups? How many can PT at any serious level? It's okay, not all martial artists are into physical training, but a handful of operators with instructor ranks in a system doesn't make up for the many, many corpulent individuals that occupy high rank in Sayoc Kali. Happens a lot in martial arts.

    I too know guys that couldn't keep up with me for 5 minutes in any form of physical fitness, but they can kick my ass. Sayoc doesn't have a monopoly on that...
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  6. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/29/2008 7:50am


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm pretty sure BJ can do 20 pullups.....

    I wouldn't call pullup ability sport specific conditioning for knifework though.
  7. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/29/2008 7:23pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical
    I'm pretty sure BJ can do 20 pullups.....
    Yeah, I bet he can too.

    I wouldn't call pullup ability sport specific conditioning for knifework though.
    Me neither, I agree with you [post #28], but that wasn't the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by variance
    ...maybe its too early in the morning
    but uh... isn't 20 pullups or chinups pretty damn easy?
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  8. Sun_Helmet is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2008 9:20am


     Style: Sayoc Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    Yeah, I know they get some guys from VB & Little Creek.
    I'd research more on that blanket statement.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    HOWEVER, even in that pic that you posted, how many of them can do 20 pullups? How many can PT at any serious level?
    I'd say six to seven of them can do it. Some even more than 20. That means that's over half the numbers in that pic alone. I know a few would probably smile at what you consider "serious" level as far as PT goes. Which proves your blanket statement to be false.

    Also, it depends on what you mean about fitness and function in terms of combatives. An individual may not be able to do twenty pullups but can can powerlift or have trained a lifetime using a tremendous degree of explosiveness. You may have to consider if doing twenty pullups is equal to being able to deadlift an impressive amount of pounds.

    What is combative fitness to you? How is your fitness training related to true combatives? If a guy is excellent at level changes, understands the principles of silat leveraging at a high level , has excellent fast twitch response times then adding powerlifting explosiveness in their fitness criteria may be more useful than doing twenty pullups. I note that you didn't mention five pullups this go around so I'm staying with your twenty pullup default.


    You may have to do more research on Sayoc since in that pic, individuals like Tuhon Tom Kier can do the knuckle stick pushups while many, many others who can do fifty pushups can NOT finish one rep. Now does that mean his fitness level is below theirs?


    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    It's okay, not all martial artists are into physical training, but a handful of operators with instructor ranks in a system doesn't make up for the many, many corpulent individuals that occupy high rank in Sayoc Kali. Happens a lot in martial arts.
    Actually it is NOT okay. You're grossly misrepresenting and making jokes at the expense of Sayoc in a public forum that is factually incorrect.

    And again, how do you justify your numbers about Sayoc? You specifically stated the TOP ranks in Sayoc, now I know the TOP ranks in Sayoc and more than half can do twenty pullups or more. I'm talking about guys that have been in the system more than fifteen years.


    It appears that you've fallen into the trap of what many Sayoc trolls have pushed online.
    You make assumptions that you've actually seen all the TOP Sayoc instructors online.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    I too know guys that couldn't keep up with me for 5 minutes in any form of physical fitness, but they can kick my ass. Sayoc doesn't have a monopoly on that...
    However, that's not the initial point you were making, and again your initial premise about the "many, many" overweight Sayoc practitioners is false. You also make an assumption that you can keep up with these "corpulent" individuals in "ANY" form of physical fitness.

    Now does keeping up mean you can deadlift as much as they can? Or push as much weight?
    Does it mean you can apply as much forward impact? Does it mean you have faster twitch muscles?

    What is combative fitness to you? From the look of your criteria it is high number of body weight repetitions and endurance (you used the qualifier of "five minutes")

    It is easy to make fun at others expense based on pictures, especially if one gets to choose the actual "fitness" criteria.

    The problem here is your whole assumption and premise is factually incorrrect.

    Just because I myself run six miles a day and do twenty plus pullups does not mean I think my fitness level is above someone who can deadlift, press or squat double what I can.

    Really think about fitness in this context, because as you yourself have implied - that criteria of fitness may not apply when it comes to actual combat. We don't have the luxury of choosing weight classes in actual combative scenarios, nor choosing which criteria of fitness is better than the other.


    What you actually saw was probably an old pic that had some of the top instructors in the system that are heavy. However, if we took a group pic of the top instructors, that photo would include more individuals who are in your criteria of "fitness".

    Lastly, let's get back on thread topic. The question is STRENGTH training for ARNIS. If we look at that criteria, I'd put my money on the individuals you poked fun at as having way more qualifications in that arena. It wasn't twenty pullups that created that.
    Last edited by Sun_Helmet; 9/30/2008 9:35am at .
  9. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/30/2008 11:31am

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sun_Helmet
    I'd research more on that blanket statement.
    If I were you, I'd research the definition of "blanket statement". :XXcompute



    Quote Originally Posted by Sun_Helmet
    I'd say six to seven of them can do it. Some even more than 20. That means that's over half the numbers in that pic alone. I know a few would probably smile at what you consider "serious" level as far as PT goes. Which proves your blanket statement to be false.
    They may "smile", they may not. If they're SWAT or WORKING military, I doubt it.

    Also, it depends on what you mean about fitness and function in terms of combatives. An individual may not be able to do twenty pullups but can can powerlift or have trained a lifetime using a tremendous degree of explosiveness. You may have to consider if doing twenty pullups is equal to being able to deadlift an impressive amount of pounds.
    I don't think that anyone who is the least bit familiar with the subject of fitness would think that 20 pullups is equal to heavy wt deadlifts. Do you? (your post is getting very convoluted...)



    It appears that you've fallen into the trap of what many Sayoc trolls have pushed online.
    You make assumptions that you've actually seen all the TOP Sayoc instructors online.
    I haven't fallen into any kind of trap whatsoever. I can peruse Sayoc Kali websites and find quite a few examples of morbidly obese individuals in paramilitary garb, armed head to toe with aluminum trainers. Look around for yourself...


    However, that's not the initial point you were making, and again your initial premise about the "many, many" overweight Sayoc practitioners is false. You also make an assumption that you can keep up with these "corpulent" individuals in "ANY" form of physical fitness.
    Yes, I do. On the other hand, do you believe that a serious level of fitness is necessary to apply or practice Sayoc Kali?

    What is combative fitness to you? From the look of your criteria it is high number of body weight repetitions and endurance (you used the qualifier of "five minutes")
    You really need to back down and perhaps learn to read. I already posted on this above.

    It is easy to make fun at others expense based on pictures, especially if one gets to choose the actual "fitness" criteria.
    Yes it is. Thanks for agreeing.

    Really think about fitness in this context, because as you yourself have implied - that criteria of fitness may not apply when it comes to actual combat. We don't have the luxury of choosing weight classes in actual combative scenarios, nor choosing which criteria of fitness is better than the other.
    Well... while the above is true, I'd much rather be built like Sonny Umpad...



    than Chris Sayoc or Tom Kier (photo for effect):



    When it comes to Fight or Flight, I think his options are rather limited...

    What you actually saw was probably an old pic that had some of the top instructors in the system that are heavy. However, if we took a group pic of the top instructors, that photo would include more individuals who are in your criteria of "fitness".
    Have the former Sayoc leaders been deposed in some kind of Heffalump coup? The average body fat % may have changed over the years, I'll grant that. Perhaps the ranks have simply swelled? (No Pun Intended)

    Lastly, let's get back on thread topic. The question is STRENGTH training for ARNIS. If we look at that criteria, I'd put my money on the individuals you poked fun at as having way more qualifications in that arena. It wasn't twenty pullups that created that.
    Really? Well, then try contributing something of substance, as I and others have above. Read the OP. He's talking about building arm and wrist strength to be able to handle metal weapons as well as rattan, or if rattan would even be effective.
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  10. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2008 12:38pm


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    If I were you, I'd research the definition of "blanket statement". :XXcompute



    Well... while the above is true, I'd much rather be built like Sonny Umpad...



    than Chris Sayoc or Tom Kier (photo for effect):



    .
    Everyone I know who saw their fight said that Tom did not look slow at all next to Eric Knauss, who is extraordinarily mobile.
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