Judo Ippon rule leads to bad habbits?

**1point2** · Posted On: 8/15/2008 2:59pm

Originally Posted by Blue Negation

jkartique: Why is negative Judo rewarded in newaza and shido'd in tachiwaza?

Brilliant way to state the fundamental issue.

As to why judo rules will probably change...well, SAMBO is on the up-and-up, MMA is ruining judo's enrollment, and judoka of all levels hate newaza rules and the ugly Olympic stuff that it's become.

The solution seems to be in a very careful tweaking of newaza attitudes & rules, a possible no-gi adaptation, and--jesus christ on fire--maybe some changes to scoring while standing. I'm just an amateur making guesses, though...pay me no mind...

Really it depends on the guys in charge, and I don't even know who they are. What they're thinking? No one knows.

**ozarkjudo** · Posted On: 8/16/2008 10:37pm

Originally Posted by Hex

I believe AAU Judo rules state that even if the uke bridges to avoid his back touching the mat, the throw is still considered an ippon. (Assuming his back would have touched if he had not bridged.)

This is the current IJF rule and was impleminted to stop bridging. Now turnouts are a good technique for comp efectivley turning a ippon into a wazari or yuko.

**Coach Josh** · Posted On: 8/17/2008 3:58pm

To be honest newaza just doesn't have that high of a consideration but the traditional Judokas. Its considered by many a lower form of Judo and not a sophisticated as a good throw. I personally dont agree with this but it is the attitude you get from older Judokas.

I agree the rules need to change but as nit picky as they are with the standing rules they should be with the ground rules. One change should be that a knock down regardless of where you land should be a koka. So belly flopping is now a score. Second any sweep or reversal of position is a yuko. So now when they do belly flop and the get turned it will be another score for the attacker. This will also reward guard sweeps

**ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE** · Posted On: 8/17/2008 7:08pm

Originally Posted by jkartigue

To be honest newaza just doesn't have that high of a consideration but the traditional Judokas. Its considered by many a lower form of Judo and not a sophisticated as a good throw. I personally dont agree with this but it is the attitude you get from older Judokas.

Is this perhaps an Am aerican thing? From posting on judoforum I get the distinct impression that the majority of older Judoka favour the inclusion of more groundwork and that it's the ref'ing community that don't like newazza. Certainly IME the majority of older coaches in the UK like newazza and bemoan the limitations on it in competition.

**musicalmike235** · Posted On: 8/17/2008 7:26pm

Originally Posted by jkartigue

To be honest newaza just doesn't have that high of a consideration but the traditional Judokas. Its considered by many a lower form of Judo and not a sophisticated as a good throw. I personally dont agree with this but it is the attitude you get from older Judokas.

My judo instructor doesn't like ne waza, but he still extremely good at it. He emphasizes the standing phase more than the ground phase; but then again, I am not as good at the standing phase as I am at the ground phase so it balances itself out for me.

**Meok** · Posted On: 8/17/2008 8:01pm

Originally Posted by jkartigue

One change should be that a knock down regardless of where you land should be a koka. So belly flopping is now a score. ...

However what happens when the match is very close where a koka spell victory and defeat. Won't it encourage poorer throws?

Originally Posted by jkartigue

...Second any sweep or reversal of position is a yuko. So now when they do belly flop and the get turned it will be another score for the attacker. This will also reward guard sweeps

Isn't a sweep or reversal a reward in itself, by availing escape from or into, osaekomi or submission? I don't think the issue here is with poor incentives for the attacker.

**PointyShinyBurn** · Posted On: 8/18/2008 4:56am

Originally Posted by Meok

Isn't a sweep or reversal a reward in itself, by availing escape from or into, osaekomi or submission? I don't think the issue here is with poor incentives for the attacker.

Except that reward is rather devalued by the quick stand ups. Even the most awesome of reversals can end up, with a couple of seconds stalling from my opponent, being nothing more than a waste of energy.

**Meok** · Posted On: 8/18/2008 5:21am

Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn

Except that reward is rather devalued by the quick stand ups. Even the most awesome of reversals can end up, with a couple of seconds stalling from my opponent, being nothing more than a waste of energy.

I agree. The answer would not be increasing the reward. Giving extra time on the ground is one answer making it easier to attack from the guard, turtle and flat stomach positions. The reward is good enough, it's just hard to get to.

**ITRY** · Posted On: 8/19/2008 11:51pm

Maybe Judo ka should wear protective hats like in boxing to cushion their heads when performing the no break fall throwing defenses? I am serious BTW

**Coach Josh** · Posted On: 8/20/2008 7:38am

The score from a pin only comes after 10 sec of control which generally after 10 sec many pins are not broken. So another way of gaining a score will lead to a more aggressive approach to newaza. If you reward the reversal, sweep or turnover then you will see more of them which will lead to more ground work.

Belly flopping is a way to avoid a throw. Its a shitty way to do it but none the less its no scored. I am not talking about a sprawl to kill or defend a throw either but the act of turning out. If that becomes a score people will avoid doing it and develop proper defense.

Older Judoka will say that they like newaza and its effective and blah blah blah blah but watch they way they run class and see how much newaza is being taught and practiced. Aside from turtle attacks and maybe a couple techniques from the guard you will not see much else.

Refs in Judo are crap the majority don't know much about Judo and the good ones are so stuck up that its a privilege (in their minds) to even speak to them. They toss these baby brown and black belts on the mat at most tournaments and inundate them with rules and crap theories that they don't know up from down. I know I am a top regional level ref in the USJI. I could be a national ref but I don't care to put up with the BS that goes along with it. The one rule I always tell guys that are reffing or learning to ref is this. "It's not your Judo match, its the players, let them dictate the match and you assign scores to their actions not what you think they should be doing." If more refs would do that the sport would be better.