Judo Ippon rule leads to bad habbits?

**Coach Josh** · Posted On: 8/14/2008 12:02pm

Rule changes generally happen after an Olympic year. Due to whatever trend is hampering or promoting unsafe acts or "bad" Judo.

As far as turtling goes well there is a fix to it. Attack the person on the ground. If the other person choses not to then thats on them. Personally I attacked on the ground when I had a good grip or opening that I could exploit if not then I let them up. Knowing that if I took them down once then I could do it again then improve my grip and go to newaza from there.

Good newaza starts from the grip. Once you establish a grip and throw and then the go to the ground you should have a technique waiting for them when they move. Many times at the Olympic level they know it doesn't feel right and just don't continue to a finishing newaza move. While many of us are thinking WTF. Its the same as an NFL QB deciding to throw to the TE 5 yards away instead of the WR in the endzone. It was the better play at the moment.

***JohnnyCache*** · Posted On: 8/14/2008 12:31pm

You can't do much meaningful attacking against a determined turtle before you're stood up. Yeah, you can jump on his back and yank on his collar and haze him a little for turtling up, but since that doesn't count as a pin, it's just emotional fulfillment.

**Blue Negation** · Posted On: 8/14/2008 12:40pm

jkartique: Why is negative Judo rewarded in newaza and shido'd in tachiwaza?

**Tom .C** · Posted On: 8/14/2008 12:43pm

I think if someone turtles and gets stuck there, it should be treated as any other osaekomi. Twentyfive seconds to Ippon.

**Judobum** · Posted On: 8/14/2008 2:43pm

The problem with penalizing for ne-waza passivity is in the definition of a passive position. Turtle or face down is obvious. But what about guard? If you just sit there, it's passive. There are many attacks from it but I can personally attest to many a sit and wait for the standup guards out there in the judo world. Half-guard? Almost no judoka is trying an attack from there since you'll almost certainly get pinned.

This is the fundamental difference between judo ne-waza and BJJ ne-waza. In judo ne-waza you avoid being on your back at all costs because there you can get pinned and lose the match. In BJJ the back is a quite workable positon and being pinned isn't a concern.

It will be incredibly difficult to penalize people on the ground. What is the turtled guy supposed to do? Scramble into a pin? How much time does he have to do it? Do get points just for lying on top of him or do you yourself need to be active as well? It's not so simple to set up.

I agree with jkartique. Once a guy turtles it's an absolutely golden opportunity. You just need to know how to exploit that tight collar in turtle. I used to do a sankaku that worked almost 50% of the time to get a pin from that spot, won tons of matches with it. Plus once I started constantly attacking with that, guys loosened up to get away which opened other things.

**Blue Negation** · Posted On: 8/14/2008 4:32pm

Originally Posted by Judobum

The problem with penalizing for ne-waza passivity is in the definition of a passive position. Turtle or face down is obvious. But what about guard? If you just sit there, it's passive. There are many attacks from it but I can personally attest to many a sit and wait for the standup guards out there in the judo world.

Treat it the same IMO

Half-guard? Almost no judoka is trying an attack from there since you'll almost certainly get pinned.

It has been demonstrated in numerous grappling competitions that half-guard is not merely holding off a pin. But again, passivity/negative Judo should = shido, just as someone slapping away hands constantly in standup.

This is the fundamental difference between judo ne-waza and BJJ ne-waza. In judo ne-waza you avoid being on your back at all costs because there you can get pinned and lose the match. In BJJ the back is a quite workable positon and being pinned isn't a concern.

Being held in side or kami shiho or tate shiho is not desirable or workable in BJJ either. Flavio Canto and Craig Fallon don't seem to be pinned simply by not being facedown during newaza - instead, they attack even when they end up on their back and choke or armlock.

It will be incredibly difficult to penalize people on the ground. What is the turtled guy supposed to do? Scramble into a pin? How much time does he have to do it? Do get points just for lying on top of him or do you yourself need to be active as well? It's not so simple to set up.

The turtle guy could attempt to escape and standup (matte, back to tachi), reverse his opponent, submit his opponent, or sit through to butterfly/open/closed guard and attack from there.

I'm not saying penalize anyone that turtles - it's obviously a more valid strategy in Judo competitions than BJJ with the pinning rules. But don't call matte and reward someone being absolutely defensive. It's negative Judo. Let them escape to tachi if they can. Let them escape or reverse or submit. But don't reward them for being utterly passive and defensive.

I agree with jkartique. Once a guy turtles it's an absolutely golden opportunity. You just need to know how to exploit that tight collar in turtle. I used to do a sankaku that worked almost 50% of the time to get a pin from that spot, won tons of matches with it. Plus once I started constantly attacking with that, guys loosened up to get away which opened other things.

Unfortunately it's pretty obvious that this is not the norm in Judo and the passive turtle tends to win a huge majority of the time.

http://www.judoinfo.com/weers5.htm

Originally Posted by George Weers

Of the 548 incidents [where a Judo competitor turtles in newaza] only 17 of these exchanges resulted in the defensive player being attacked successfully for a score. These statistics show a 3.1% probability of successfully attacking the Turtle.

And, as we saw in the Olympics, it seems matte will be called as soon as an opponent even looks vaguely turtle-shaped if not *as the armbar is being applied*.

I know this isn't how things are in solid Judo clubs... but shiai matters too.

**PointyShinyBurn** · Posted On: 8/14/2008 6:09pm

Originally Posted by Blue Negation

And, as we saw in the Olympics, it seems matte will be called as soon as an opponent even looks vaguely turtle-shaped if not *as the armbar is being applied*.

There was some fat bastard who was stopping them literally as they were being rolled by a turnover attempt. Lack of progress seems, for some of them, to mean 'lack of falling directly into a submission'.

That said, a lot of guys seemed to stop and look at the ref after yet another failed sumi-gaeshi when they had good opportunities to pass the guard.

**Lu Tze** · Posted On: 8/14/2008 6:29pm

Forget rule changes and penalties for passivity, just more time to actually work something would be nice. It gets fucking embarrassing at times... Judo has groundwork!?! You don't say...

**ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE** · Posted On: 8/14/2008 6:39pm

Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn

There was some fat bastard who was stopping them literally as they were being rolled by a turnover attempt. Lack of progress seems, for some of them, to mean 'lack of falling directly into a submission'.

The problem is that even among international refs, there seems to be a disproportionate number of people that can't recognise basic turnovers, let alone the more advanced stuff. Add to this the fact that newazza is "boring" for TV audiences (Who aren't actually watching it anyway!) And you get 2 second newazza.

Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn

That said, a lot of guys seemed to stop and look at the ref after yet another failed sumi-gaeshi when they had good opportunities to pass the guard.

It's there decision, they stayed on top ujn-entangled, why should they risk going toground if they think they can use throws to win?

IMO we don't need excessively long amounts of time on the ground, you can see some fast turn overs and submissions and I like it because even the groundwork looks different to a SAMBO or BJJ comp because it's being done very quickly! But we do still need more than a couple of seconds to work that newazza, not huge amounts of time (Judo is meant to emphasise throwing over newazza after all), but more than is being given, enough to make it more worthwhile of top competitors time to practice it.

**theotherserge** · Posted On: 8/14/2008 7:31pm

or allow leg-locks vs. Y-turtle :)

I think throwing with control is really crucial. Just brushing your opponent to the mat isn't enough.

For SAMBO, you have to remain standing for a total victory throw. Kind of negates the need for turnouts as you can bring your opponent down with you.

I saw+heard a Judo brown belt shorten his posted
arm in a tournament, ick!