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  1. Just Guess is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/13/2008 8:19pm


     Style: ukemi & tapping out

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by pontoon
    Many, many throws in judo will result in uke landing on his head/neck should they not actively breakfall.
    No they shouldn't. Judo throws are supposed to be inherently safe, so the uke will fall on their side or back if thrown properly. Ukemi is supposed to make it less painful.
  2. Bustardo is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/13/2008 8:38pm


     Style: BJJ/Pekiti Tersia/Hsing-I

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Just Guess
    No they shouldn't. Judo throws are supposed to be inherently safe, so the uke will fall on their side or back if thrown properly. Ukemi is supposed to make it less painful.
    It takes very, very little modification to change a judo throw to spike someone on their head.
  3. Judobum is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/13/2008 9:48pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Has there been a rash of injuries from people falling on their heads recently? This was from one observed incident. I'll flip it around and say that I'm sure some people do spike themselves on their own heads to avoid being thrown. I'm sure these are not the best competitors out there since there are much better ways.

    I don't tend to take a lot of breakfalls. Despite being retired from competition, when I go out on the mats I'm still usually going hard when the opponent is appropriate. I still have enough ego I don't like to give up falls. You'll find most serious competitors have this mindset even in practice and I think it's healthy. You need to practice spinning out of throws to do it effectively and safely. One of my nicknames was "Fish" because I would flip and flop away from my back in mid-air all the time. Re-positioning yourself in midair to a more advantageous position is a good skill to learn... as long as you don't injure yourself.

    Blocking throws with your head isn't a good idea but I'd be lying if I said I'd never done it. In the heat of the moment you'll defend however way presents itself. I can remember refusing to roll over in uchi-matas or harais a couple of times and taking some pretty good head impacts (frontal, not on the back of the neck). I've posted out on my arm a lot, I'm quite good at it but I always tell everyone that's a "do as I say, not as I do thing". Knock on wood I've never turfed my arm doing it. The only time I can remeber being seriously hurt avoiding a throw was trying to spin out of a double. My upper body turned around (facedown) but the lower body didn't. Back injury put me out for a couple months.

    Learning ukemi is absolutely essential to judo. You need to be able to get thrown arond and not get hurt. It teaches you how to position and move your body on the ground and in mid-air as well. This gradually leads to learning how to avoid being thrown for ippon without injuring yourself (if you have the agility and the desire). Spiking yourself on your head = Bad. Spinning in mid-air out of an ippon = Good.
  4. facetexcusa is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/14/2008 2:48am

    Bullshido Newbie
     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm a recreational player. Haven't really competed in the elite level.

    The thing is, I want to survive another day. I make sure I fall properly. In randori, so what? I mean go hard, if you get thrown, you get thrown. It's just automatic for me to breakfall.

    In competition, if I get thrown, I get thrown. If the throw is good enough, you won't even know what happened, that you'll just feel yourself hitting the mat. If you have time to "fish" mid-air then the throw wasn't that good to begin with.

    It's the same philosophy for tapping out. I tap out early and often to prevent injury. I mean in an armbar, there is a point of no return. Chokes are a different story as you can see the tunnel vision coming. Now neck cranks sometimes happen from a misapplied choke. I've tapped out before on that. No biggie. I'd rather not tweak my neck than argue with a referee that was really a neck crank and not a choke.

    The thing you have to ask yourself is this? Will I be able to train another day? Not landing for an ippon and tweaking something hard that puts you out of commission for several months is not smart. Everybody gets thrown/pinned/choke sometime. Even World Champions and Olympians get thrown. It's part of the game. No matter how good you are, somewhere, someone out there can kick your ass.

    Train hard, train smart, and fight another day.
  5. Just Guess is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/14/2008 4:52am


     Style: ukemi & tapping out

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bustardo
    It takes very, very little modification to change a judo throw to spike someone on their head.
    So? That's with modification, not with how the throws are supposed to be done which will result in uke landing on their back or side even if they don't break fall. Even in randori there haven't been many times where I needed to take an active part in making sure I don't get head spiked when thrown.
  6. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/14/2008 9:33am

    Business Class Supporting Member
     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Training for nationals them learn to turnout. Training for fun learn ukemi. Its not rocket science. The university club we started with was highly competitive and turnouts were a regular part of training and randori. Ukemi was also a regular part of class. When we were doing belt rankings. Now I teach at a rec center and ukemi is better for randori than turnouts. Except for this one black belt who refuses I... uhm HE doesn't take falls in randori often.
    Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
  7. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/14/2008 9:46am

    Join us... or die
     Style: 剛 and 柔

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadmeat
    Gerald Lafon, a 5th dan Master Instructor for US Judo is well known for teaching his students to Turnout instead of doing proper Ukemi, which is a little controversial in some circles.

    Here's an excerpt from an article he wrote, which can be found here: http://www.judoinfo.com/pdf/ukemi.pdf

    He actually makes a pretty good case for his approach, but personally, I think Ukemi is very important, and try to spend a lot of time working on my falls and rolling.

    Interestingly, a friend of mine who is a good freestyle wrestler told me he has never been taught to breakfall, and that he "basically just figured out over time how to take falls in ways that don't leave him as disadvantaged in competition".
    Thanks for finding this. It's exactly the article I was referencing.

    I agree with your assessment--he seems to make a cogent, legitimate point, which seems to inform a rational curriculum at his school. But I completely 100% disagree with his approach, and would never train there. I doubt I would let my kid train there.

    What he derogitorily calls "mat bashing" is judo as Kano envisioned it--with cooperative, competitive, sportive, serious and realistic randori for vigorous free practice, and with shiai for hard-fought competition...but without overemphasis on the garbage of rules-pandering techniques like head-spiking oneself. I don't see the joy in the judo he seems to teach.

    I bet that the Kodokan and/or IOC is going to modify Judo rules in the near future (~5 years). I hope it's drastic and I hope it allows for valuing dominant position, more groundwork, and dare I say it, no-gi.
  8. musicalmike235 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/14/2008 10:45am


     Style: Grappling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2
    I bet that the Kodokan and/or IOC is going to modify Judo rules in the near future (~5 years). I hope it's drastic and I hope it allows for valuing dominant position, more groundwork, and dare I say it, no-gi.
    Could you elaborate on why you think a change in rules is imminent? I am not disagreeing with you, I am just curious.
  9. JohnnyCache is offline
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    All Out of Bubblegum

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    Posted On:
    8/14/2008 11:22am

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I would like to see Ippon enforced in the spirit of the rule - one problem with ippon is that it's over-enforced. I watched a classmate lose a match one day when he was thrown and rolled out of the throw smoothly to his feet. If the guy can roll out of it, it's not a stunning throw in the spirit of ippon, I don't care what happened with his shoulder blades. Less of these technical ippons and you'd see less posting/rounding out of throws.

    Also, something has to be done about the y-turtle in judo. You know, guy lands on his belly, grabs his collar, throws his legs out, and holds for a re-start? I'm not saying let the guy pummel the downed guy in the back - judo should stay judo - but they could make it a pin, or give a minor penalty for turtling, like they do for intentionally backing out of the ring to avoid grips. A simple rule-change of some sort should be effected so that lying on your belly with your head tucked and your legs spread is not taught as an effective wrestling technique.
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  10. Ryno is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/14/2008 11:44am


     Style: FMA, Jujutsu/Judo/SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I can remember refusing to roll over in uchi-matas or harais a couple of times and taking some pretty good head impacts (frontal, not on the back of the neck).

    I actually get nervous throwing uchimatas on people now, as I accidentally knocked out a training partner and forced a standing 8 count for a visiting wrestler who also injured his shoulder slightly from taking a bad fall from one. If people aren't good at taking falls, uchimata can be risky to take.

    Also, something has to be done about the y-turtle in judo. You know, guy lands on his belly, grabs his collar, throws his legs out, and holds for a re-start? I'm not saying let the guy pummel the downed guy in the back - judo should stay judo - but they could make it a pin, or give a minor penalty for turtling, like they do for intentionally backing out of the ring to avoid grips. A simple rule-change of some sort should be effected so that lying on your belly with your head tucked and your legs spread is not taught as an effective wrestling technique.

    Amen to that. It's a friggin combative sport. Can you think of a much worse position combatively? Turtle is a transitional position that you should try to get out of. If you are not trying to get out of it, but are just playing the restart game you are conceding the weakness of your position. Koka against a player doing this would seem fair to me.
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