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  1. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Shime Waza Test Dummy

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2008 12:51am

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw
    Yes, but were any of those with Palm heel thrusts? The only palm strikes I can recall ever seeing in Pancrase were of the power slap variety, coming around from the side, not the palm heel thrust straight down the z-axis.
    I'd like to clarify that I'm not talking about palm strikes in general - I'm talking about the palm heel thrust in specific, wherein the the blow is thrown similarly to a straight right or left, but with the hand open and flexed back rather than curled into a fist. See the photo of ol' Phil below for reference:

    [Offensive Image Removed]

    The notion that this is going to safer on the hand than a strike thrown with the fist in the same tragectory seems highly suspicious to me. Disregarding the loss of power and reach, it seems like throwing your fleshy palm straight into someone's face is likely to lead to a teeth-versus-palm scenario in which the meat of your hand does not fair well. Furthermore, throwing one's hand straight forward with the fingers/wrist bent back and up is both leaving them in the ideal position to be bent back unnaturally, and supplying the force in the necessary vector to bend them back. All it would take is in an object - say, your opponents hands or head - intercepting your hand at the fingers or the top the palm to violently bend the hand back whilst throwing the palm heel thrust.
    Now, the power slap, by virtue of it's different tragectory and targeting, seems less prone to the above mentioned problems.
    For a strike advocated as being safer on your hands, the palm heel thrust seems to hold an awful lot of dangers.

    Also, I thoroughly object to the gitmo'ing of this thread. If I had simply posted "HAI GUYZ IS PALM STRIKE GOOD FOR STREET FIGHT", then it would be proper to have it detained. But so far, it's been a reasonably well thought out discussion of a weapon which gets a lot of play up by RBSD bullshido but is rarely actually tested.

    Check This vid on YouTube. In Pancrase, there is a great combination of fists to the body and hooking/swinging palms to the head and palm heel thrusts to the face.
    You see a myriad of shots for awhile and then around :50 a palm heel puts a guy on his ass.
    About 1:05 with palm heel thrust to Mo Smith (I think). Another at 1:09.
    At 1:35 a short right palm heel hook puts a guy down. Not a haymaker.
    At about 2:00 on you see Bas using a barrage of palm strikes, hooks, & uppercuts, all to good effect.
    At about 2:10, Bas puts down Frank Shamrock with a kick and two short palm hook combo.
    At 2:22, Bas applies a great back fist. It doesn't apply, but IT'S BAD ASS!!!
    About 2:40, a couple palm hooks and then a few STRONG right palms directly to the head for effect. Watch up through 2:58 for a knockout with just palms and knees.
    3:16, a punch that ruptures the guy's liver (its just fun)
    Hard to Soft (Fist to Body), Soft to Hard (Palm/Chop to Face/Head/Bone).
    BAS MAKES IT WORK!!!

    YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  2. 3moose1 is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/12/2008 3:43am

    Join us... or die
     Style: MCMAP, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is my take on the matter:

    A fist is naturally going to be harder. Its denser, and heavier then the heel of your hand (which as i understand, is what your supposed to hit with...). A fist will hit with more force (usually) and do more damage (usually). Damage to both parties. Trust me, i've broken 3 fingers, my 5th metacarpal, and displaced a tendon in my pinkie from punching (albeit, incorrectly, but in a self defense situation, how many people are going to be capable of making a technically perfect fist?)

    i think the heel thrust should be used in regards to vital point striking. No, i'm not talking d1m m4k, or n3rve strik3s. IMO, the whole "vital point" moniker came from...i can hit home-boy in the arm, or i can hit home-boy in the solar plexus. Which one is more effective?

    Anyhow, i think a heel thrust to the solar plexus, nose, ears, groin (if something went wrong) or upwards into the chin would be quite effective.

    Besides, you don't have to one hit KO the attacker anyway. As gene lebell...or is it wally jay (?) put it: put them in pain now, keep them in pain always...

    PROOF that I'm not a completely useless poster:
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...0&postcount=58


    Quote Originally Posted by Cy Q. Faunce
    3moose1 is correct. Sig THAT, you fucker.

    Quote Originally Posted by sochin101 View Post
    I went out with a delightful young woman who was on a regimen of pills that made her taste of burned onions.
    That is not conducive to passionate cunnilingus, my friend, let me assure you.
    Quote Originally Posted by HappyOldGuy View Post
    I agree with moosey
  3. sprunghunt is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2008 4:31am


     Style: Wing Tsun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Unless you've done 'iron palm' style hand conditioning the skin on your palm is thicker than the skin on your knuckles (try a pinch test). This means that a palm strike is less likely to break open the skin if you contact the teeth. In a streetfight you're not wearing gloves or wraps and nobody's wearing a mouthguard.

    So if you want to break someones teeth you should use a palmstrike.

    otherwise you could get a fight bite like this:

    http://www.ispub.com/ostia/index.php...ol1n2/bite.xml

    Scroll down for some fabulous pictures! once you see the pictures you'll understand why RBSD instructors of all kinds reccomend not using your knuckles.
    Last edited by sprunghunt; 8/12/2008 4:34am at .
  4. Anna Kovacs is offline
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    Spear Sister

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2008 7:28am

    supporting membersupporting member
     Style: Dancing the Spears

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Dude looks like he got in a fight with a nasty spider.
  5. Sakmongkol is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2008 7:38am


     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Having just watched/masturbated over the Bas Rutten HL vid on youtube I can confirm that he throws right crosses with an open palm as well as powa! slaps.

    Edit: ****.
  6. Anna Kovacs is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/12/2008 7:46am

    supporting membersupporting member
     Style: Dancing the Spears

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've always dug that HL vid....but bas rutten sure is an ugly man.

    He does show that there's no real reason why you cant palm someone straight in the face. It's not going to have the cutting impact on them but still isn't going to be fun.
  7. TheMightyMcClaw is offline
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    MADE OF STEEL!

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2008 8:07am

    supporting member
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sprunghunt
    Unless you've done 'iron palm' style hand conditioning the skin on your palm is thicker than the skin on your knuckles (try a pinch test). This means that a palm strike is less likely to break open the skin if you contact the teeth. In a streetfight you're not wearing gloves or wraps and nobody's wearing a mouthguard.

    So if you want to break someones teeth you should use a palmstrike.

    otherwise you could get a fight bite like this:

    http://www.ispub.com/ostia/index.php...ol1n2/bite.xml

    Scroll down for some fabulous pictures! once you see the pictures you'll understand why RBSD instructors of all kinds reccomend not using your knuckles.
    Jesus christ! I knew human bites were nasty things, but I never realized how bad they were.
    Honestly, this just makes scared to hit people in the face with anything, palm, fist, or otherwise.
    Jim Jude's video, however I find quite enlightening - specifically the shot at 0:50, wherein Bas seems to KO someone with a straight palm heel thrust (rather than a powe slap, the effectiveness of which is demonstrated a great many times).
    I have to say, this changes my opinion of palm heel thrusts, and upgrades them from "**** I've never seen work" (a category which includes wrist returns and spear hands) to "**** I've seen work on rare occasion" (which includes wake gatame and cartwheel kicks).
  8. MrBadGuy is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/12/2008 8:48am

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     Style: Grapplomancer

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw
    Yes, but were any of those with Palm heel thrusts?
    Yes.

    While I'm not entirely sure on this, I'm roughly 60% sure he broke a guys nose with his palm thrust. I can't remember if it was a thrust or a slap, but he did in fact break a guys nose with his palm.

    Disregarding the loss of power and reach,
    Loss of reach, yes. Loss of power....How? Unless you mean power by virtue of the fact that knuckles are harder; even then, the outerish heel of the palm is rather tough. Rodney King, of straight blast gym and crazy monkey fame, suggested that in a gloveless fight you use palms to the face, and knuckles to the body.

    it seems like throwing your fleshy palm straight into someone's face is likely to lead to a teeth-versus-palm scenario in which the meat of your hand does not fair well.
    My uncle hit a man in the mouth. His knocked a tooth out; unfortunately, that tooth was also stuck right outside the knuckle, in a nerve. He lost feeling in the finger, and only has about 50% mobility in it. It was his pointer finger, just in case you were wondering. I know, I know, anecdotal evidence is complete crap, but I think you overestimate getting a tooth stabbed into your palm and underestimate getting a tooth stabbed into your fingers/knuckle area.

    Furthermore, throwing one's hand straight forward with the fingers/wrist bent back and up is both leaving them in the ideal position to be bent back unnaturally, and supplying the force in the necessary vector to bend them back. All it would take is in an object - say, your opponents hands or head - intercepting your hand at the fingers or the top the palm to violently bend the hand back whilst throwing the palm heel thrust.
    If you're punching and your fist lands weird, your wrist can bend, and with all your force and bodyweight going forward, you can hurt your wrist. Surprisingly, your wrist can bend either up, like a palm thrust injury, or down. (Note: I know how dumb this sounds. That was the point.)

    Once again, I think you're overestimating things. A meteorite could fall out of the sky and crush my palm hand. A velociraptor could waltz into the room with a .45 and shoot my palm hand. Fact is, it is very unlikely; for this to occur, the angle of your initial palm thrust would have to be ridiculous. Remember, you're aiming with the heel of your palm. So for your hand to bend backwards, you'd have to unexpectedly hit something as it was moving up. Unless you're punching from well above your opponent (You're a freakishly tall person, he is a midget), and he happens to decide to suddenly jump up, I don't see this happening too often.



    To reiterate: Bas Rutten did it, maimed with it, and broke noses with it.


    Edit: God damn it. Everyone beat me to it. I need to refresh before I post.
  9. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2008 9:40am

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     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw
    Also, I thoroughly object to the gitmo'ing of this thread. If I had simply posted "HAI GUYZ IS PALM STRIKE GOOD FOR STREET FIGHT", then it would be proper to have it detained. But so far, it's been a reasonably well thought out discussion of a weapon which gets a lot of play up by RBSD bullshido but is rarely actually tested.
    It had nothing to do with your original post. I could just tell where the thread was going and had no interest in pruning out half of the posts.
  10. 3moose1 is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/12/2008 9:51am

    Join us... or die
     Style: MCMAP, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark
    It had nothing to do with your original post. I could just tell where the thread was going and had no interest in pruning out half of the posts.
    It seems to me the only de-railment has come from you/mcclaw engaging in your debate over where to place this thread...

    and this post, of course.

    :psyduck:

    PROOF that I'm not a completely useless poster:
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...0&postcount=58


    Quote Originally Posted by Cy Q. Faunce
    3moose1 is correct. Sig THAT, you fucker.

    Quote Originally Posted by sochin101 View Post
    I went out with a delightful young woman who was on a regimen of pills that made her taste of burned onions.
    That is not conducive to passionate cunnilingus, my friend, let me assure you.
    Quote Originally Posted by HappyOldGuy View Post
    I agree with moosey
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