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  1. TheRuss is offline
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    is badder than you

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2008 12:07am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    All right. Now listen up, and listen carefully...

    ... I apologize. I've been too dogmatic, and I should have known better, because I know how much it bugs me when other people do the same thing. I could go on arguing grammar, but I'd just be justifying my mistake. Again, I apologize.

    There are still a few things I'd like to discuss about this, but I'm going to wait until tomorrow so I can give my response some time and hopefully avoid being a douche.

    Two things, though:

    1) Tell me about rack progressions, if you would. I've got a guess, but that's it.

    2) I want to strongly recommend using spotter bars of some sort when bench pressing (squatting should go without saying - look up J.P. Fux) if at all possible, shirt or no shirt, rack press or full ROM. If something bad happens and you lose control of the bar, it's unrealistic to expect your spotter(s) to catch it before it hits you, but a properly-placed spotter bar (usually lower than the chest but definitely higher than the neck) can reduce what would have been internal organ damage/crushed windpipe into a nasty bruise and an embarrassing clang.
  2. Emevas is offline
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    Dysfunctionally Strong

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2008 12:58pm

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     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No need for an apology dude, it's been a great discussion, and you've exposed me to some new ways of thought as well. We've managed to remain civil, which is not standard form around there parts, haha.

    1: Rack progression (put incredibly simply) is a principle Paul Anderson used in a lot of his training. For his squat, he dug a hole in the ground where he squatted to reduce the ROM of the squat. He was able to use a significantly greater degree of weight and more reps due to this reduced ROM. When he hit a certain number of reps (something around 20 or so), he'd cover the hole with some dirt, keep the weight the same, and work from the increased ROM. He'd cut reps as necessary, and keep refilling the hole, until he was eventually using the weight from the beginning for a heavy single. This style can be used with a lot of training, using the pins in the power rack for heavy rack pulls towards a heavy deadlift to a series of boards on the board press down to a heavy single for bench.

    2: I can't argue with that.

    If you want to continue the discussion, we can, but I think we've both invested probably way too much time as it is. I can understand where you're coming from, and though I do not necessarily agree with it on a personal level, I understand why you believe what you do. Ultimately, we're getting into the weeds here on strength training, and I'm willing to shake e-hands and say "good discussion". I'm just glad to have another educated person on this forum.
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  3. Raining_Blood is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/13/2008 5:53am


     Style: Wrestling, MT

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Emevas I agree with you that powerlifting gear can be used to help overload certain areas of weakness and can be usefull in progressions but I dont think their use is validated outside of those looking to become powerlifters.

    In with elite athletes very few will be of a adequate physical level which validate use of these techniques. Most sources even agree that the use of other accomodating resistances tools (bands, chains) is not necessary with all but the most experienced athletes. For most athletes, especially of the caliber on this site, just concentrating on getting strong will serve their needs more than adequately.
  4. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/13/2008 7:09am

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     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Again, I wasn't arguing about a use of validation, I was arguing against the idea of them being "only useful". It can be useful for someone outside of powerlifting. I'm not saying it's the most useful, or that it should be used exclusively, I was merely arguing against the notion that it only had use for those pursing powerlifting.

    And I agree with you regarding training for folks on the site, I was just taking a very literal interpretation of the statement. I'm not really a fan of absolutes in strength training, as usually the case is that every movement/training system has a use, it just needs to be utilized correctly. It is not to say that some styles aren't more useful than others, but every once in a while, there is an opportunity to use something different.
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  5. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/14/2008 12:30am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas
    1: Rack progression (put incredibly simply) is a principle Paul Anderson used in a lot of his training. For his squat, he dug a hole in the ground where he squatted to reduce the ROM of the squat. He was able to use a significantly greater degree of weight and more reps due to this reduced ROM. When he hit a certain number of reps (something around 20 or so), he'd cover the hole with some dirt, keep the weight the same, and work from the increased ROM. He'd cut reps as necessary, and keep refilling the hole, until he was eventually using the weight from the beginning for a heavy single. This style can be used with a lot of training, using the pins in the power rack for heavy rack pulls towards a heavy deadlift to a series of boards on the board press down to a heavy single for bench.
    Is the idea to pre-fatigue the muscles from "top down", so to speak?

    Also, have you read Super Squats, and if so, what'd you think of it?
  6. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/14/2008 6:52am

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     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yup, Super Squats is one of my favorite reads. Great motivator, and the 20 rep squat routine was a real ass kicker.

    You aren't necessarily pre-fatiguing, as you stay at the same fixed height for the entire workout. You only move down the rack and start from there on your next workout, not within the same workout. It's goal is to basically condition your body to handling heavier loads, and to keep the weight to same while gradually increasing the ROM, rather than keeping the ROM the same while gradually increasing the weight.
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  7. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/14/2008 9:49am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas
    You aren't necessarily pre-fatiguing, as you stay at the same fixed height for the entire workout. You only move down the rack and start from there on your next workout, not within the same workout. It's goal is to basically condition your body to handling heavier loads, and to keep the weight to same while gradually increasing the ROM, rather than keeping the ROM the same while gradually increasing the weight.
    Yeah, I thought you'd meant between sets, but that makes more sense. There's definitely something to be said for "feeling" a heavier weight, too - even if it's only for the sake of psychology (rather than as part of progressive resistance as given here), it's still influential.
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