5/06/2009 7:13pm, #381
...or just a dumbass.
5/06/2009 8:51pm, #382
Effects of different sports on bone density and muscle mass in highly trained athletes.
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Andreoli A, Monteleone M, Van Loan M, Promenzio L, Tarantino U, De Lorenzo A.
Human Nutrition Unit and Orthopedic Clinic, University of Tor Vergata, Rome, Italy. [email protected]
PURPOSE: It is known that participating in sports can have a beneficial effect on bone mass. However, it is not well established which sport is more beneficial for increased bone mineral density (BMD) and appendicular muscle mass (AMM). This study investigated the effects of different high-intensity activities on BMD and AMM in highly trained athletes. MATERIALS AND METHODS: Sixty-two male subjects aged 18--25 yr participated in the study. The sample included judo (J; N = 21), karate (K; N = 14), and water polo (W; N = 24) athletes who all competed at national and international level. Twelve age-matched nonathletic individuals served as the control group (C). All athletes exercised regularly for at least 3 h x d(-1), 6 d x wk(-1). Segmental, total BMD, and AMM were measured with a dual-energy x-ray (DXA) absorptiometry (Lunar Corp., Madison, WI). DXA analysis also includes bone mineral content (BMC) and fat and lean masses. RESULTS: Total BMD(C) was significantly lower (mean +/- SD: 1.27 +/- 0.06 g x cm(-2), P < 0.05) than either judo or karate athletes (total BMD(J) (1.4 +/- 0.06 g x cm(-2)) and total BMD(K) (1.36 +/- 0.08 g x cm(-2))) but not different from the W athletes (total BMD(W) (1.31 +/- 0.09 g x cm(-2))). AMM was significantly lower in the C group compared with the three athletic groups (P < 0.05). Fat mass was higher in the W versus J and K athletes but not different from the C group (P < 0.05). CONCLUSIONS: This cross-sectional study has shown that athletes, especially those engaged in high-impact sports, have significantly higher total BMD and AMM than controls. These results suggest that the type of sport activity may be an important factor in achieving a high peak bone mass and reducing osteoporosis risk.
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5/06/2009 9:31pm, #383
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So, two degrees in physiology, the subject at hand, is an appeal to authority...but quoting an anthropology prof is not.
Please tell me you're not a trial lawyer.
Objection your honor! The prosecution is idiotic.
5/06/2009 11:53pm, #384
5/06/2009 11:56pm, #385
5/07/2009 4:45am, #386
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Some judo player kicks tires to train for sweep, they are the exeptions and if most judo players do not kick as had as MT but you usually notice where it lands.
As well muscles contraction produces a similar effect. Bracing yourself for impact is a long contraction in a very short time and does stress the bone that supports the muscle.
Typically swimming requires shorter contraction over a long period of time, so for the same muscle mass you do not put the same stress on the skeleton.
For example skeleton of archers found in the Marry rose, showed a significant bone growth on their bow arm and shoulder.
If you shoot longbow over 60-80 lbs you will see that it does put stress on you bone and require strong muscle.
We would need a test/experiment but it seems reasonable to believe that the bones affected are the one that placed under stress.
I think that from that article, it seems that there does not seem to be a difference with muscle stress and direct conditioning of the bone.
And that according to what you want to condition direct impact is really the only way.
For example shooting longbow does not really condition you to punch.
So hitting heavy bag (or/and progressively hard object) bare knuckled or with your shin seems to be the most efficient way to do so.
5/07/2009 10:10am, #387
[quote=crappler;2118523]There's an "underlying issue" now?
Not really. It's the obvious point of the entire discussion.
When this came to light, you decided to change the goal-posts and claim that the REAL question, all long, had actually been "how significant are these bone-changes?"
Dunno. You tell me: how "significant" are changes in cardio for a mid-distance runner? How "significant" are core-changes for a grappler? Do you need others to do your homework to show you the obvious? Can a cardio-trained heart beat more efficiently? Duh. Can a stronger core help in grappling? Duh. Can a denser bone, covered with more callused skin, withstand an impact more readily than an unconditioned fist? Is the sky blue? Duh. How much adaptation is "significant" depends on how much one trains towards that adaptation, and how much one uses its effect. In my job, I do. Maybe you don't.
You also wrote of neurological changes (becoming accustomed to hard impacts) as if this had not been mentioned before. This despite the fact that I had already referred to it as part and parcel of hand-conditioning (look up "losing the cringe-factor"). Adaptation is both mental AND physical. That ring a bell?
The question is whether bone conditioning actually increases the combat effectiveness of the fighter by making his bones stronger. While you point to numerous studies which indicate that bone density is increased by weight training, you are nonetheless unable to cite a single scientific study which provides any evidence that conditioned bone is significantly stronger than unconditioned bone and that, in turn, makes it so that someone who has conditioned bones can strike harder and more effectively.
I simply entertain the possibility that, in fact, the conditioning really only serves to eliminate the pain. Pain which more than likely would not be felt anyway in the midst of an actual scuffle.
There is a lot of mythology and orthodoxy surrounding the martial arts.
I know I'm asking for trouble coming to a traditional martial arts forum and posing these questions, because I might sound like an MMA dumbass.
Last edited by Vieux Normand; 5/07/2009 10:15am at .
5/07/2009 10:37am, #388
I think the real problem here is anyone attempting to argue against the orthodoxy. If you wanna preach to the choir then have at it. But if you want me to join your Karate-circle jerk and numbly nod my head like you, basing it upon your "of course" and "it's obvious" arguments, then have it. You wouldn't be the first, or the last, martial arts guy to cling to his cherished beliefs to the bitter end. There is a long history of selling **** for a nickel a ton, and going "well, it's obvous". Guess what? It ain't.
Last edited by crappler; 5/07/2009 10:40am at .
5/07/2009 11:03am, #389
It is well-known (no doubt you'll want others to do your homework for you in this as well), that those who do not wish to condition their hands are perfectly free to use open-hand strikes, available weaponry, throws and sweeps...or they can, if they so wish, take their chances and use unconditioned hands, minus gloves and tape, for headhunting fist-strikes when defending themselves, and risk the consequences.
For those of us who must betimes defend ourselves with bareknuckle strikes, it makes basic sense to condition the hands in preparation. It works for us.
That it makes basic sense to do so does not make it, in any way, mandatory. Those who do not wish to harden their hands are by no means required to do so.
How is this freedom of choice "orthodoxy"?
While we're on that particular term, almost none of the non-KK Karate schools I've observed outside of Japan do much--if anything--in the way of hand-hardening. Makiwara boards seem to be rarer and rarer these days. If it's such a minority practice, then how can hand-conditioning be termed the result of "othodoxy"?
Last edited by Vieux Normand; 5/07/2009 11:16am at .
5/07/2009 11:13am, #390
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Because he's gone from appeal to authority to strawman & ad hom.
Anthropology requires a deep knowledge of biology? Deeper than physiology?
Where did you get your law degree from?