Question about Gracie Combatives...

[sapateiro]

Everything done in class is official and you are not allowed to give your "opinion" about what it correct and what isn't. But it is common to have discussions about techniques outside of class for those people who are interested. That is where the alternates to the gracie gift are "discussed".

I can understand the need for the regimented environment in the police or military, it's just a shame if open questions aren't encouraged IMO. I learn a lot from the questions received, and sometimes a complete novice can make an observation I've never considered before simply because he/she's thinking from a different perspective. The first thing I usually do when someone says 'but I'd do this' is to ask them to do it on me, then talk through the pros and cons with the class.

When you're allowed to discuss this guard pass, are changes to the syllabus considered as a result? The US military has always been well respected in terms of its investment in its troops, so perhaps a minor change could be accomodated when jiu jitsu is still progressing. A lot of the british soldiers get very little in comparison from what I've heard.

[jnp]

Let's say you've closed the distance on an aggressive or conservative opponent, and have tried to gain the top position via a bodyfold or leghook takedown, but have failed because his hips are too far back & his weight in leaning in (ie too much to drop for a single/double). Instead of jumping your legs behind him, you

-release the hook grip on his hips
-move your hands one at a time to cup his shoulders from rear (to stop him from posturing)
-step your feet in towards him (either outside of his feet, or on them if he's tall or has a wide base).
* all thru this your weight should be hanging off his shoulders so step in, but leave your hips out *
-drop into a sitting position pulling him with you (the motion should be vertical initially, then straightening your legs before hitting the ground to gain space between his knee and your family jewels :)
-transition to guard punch-block series stage one otherwise he's going to be punching you in the face.

The most common mistakes during this one are the ones that allow the opponent some posture, like trying to move two hands to the shoulders at once, or allowing your hips to get closer to the opponent when stepping in. Sometimes guys don't extend their legs enough when sitting & catch a knee... This normally only happens the once ;-). Also when drilling this in class, it's good to extend your arms slightly in the middle of the sitting motion - otherwise you smash your opponents jaw on your shoulder (which is obviously fine in a real situation!).

Or you could never pull guard in a street fight BECAUSE IT'S A RETARDED THING TO DO!.

The guard position's only application in a fight is in a worst case scenario, i.e. you've just been knocked on your ass with the other guy on top and you need to get back up quickly.

If you're considering pulling guard on the street, you need to start training in Judo instead.

What is your rank in BJJ sapateiro?

[sapateiro]

On the street it's a last resort obviously.

Let's say you've closed the distance ...

The guard position's only application in a fight is in a worst case scenario,

So, you carefully quoted my post, missing out the 'on the street its a last resort' so you could tell me pulling guard on the street is a last resort and that I'm retarded? Just so I understand....?

Sorry guys, but I'm done with the pissing contest, and pathetic bickering - I've got better things to do with my time. If you guys took as much time trying to help the original poster as you do trying (in vain) to belittle those that are trying to help, then this forum would be a much better place.

The question was about the Gracie Combatives outside of the military. I teach it fulltime, and am in a position to answer the question. If you guys want to confirm that I'm authentic, then feel free to phone the inventor of the system, Rorion Gracie. Or check out the web. Or confirm the club as the highest medal winner in the country from the nationals. But let's face it, some of you aren't gonna do that 'cause it's more fun to make wisecracks & try to take the piss.

If you're ever in a position to visit you'd be very welcome, either for a roll, or possibly as a guest instructor - we had someone from another academy come over friday night & show some stuff.
.

[Yrkoon9]

Ok - thanks for clearing that up.

For a clearer picture, I have taught for years. However, I do not teach in the Army. And for further perspective I am undefeated in the Army - 2 years. Undefeated. Tapped everybody I have ever gone against.

The reason I toot this horn is the overtones of your posts insinuates that if I don't teach than I must not know what I am talking about. And that is far from the truth.

LOL @ tapping lvl3 and lvl4 certified instructors with triangle after triangle. Just because they teach doesn't mean they know ****.

[Poo-Jitsu]

LOL @ name dropping all over this thread. Your head is so far up the Gracie's ass it is sad. Unfortunately the names you keep dropping have been notorious for holding students back, and teaching archaic and flawed techniques... But I have never taken lessons from Rorion/Helio because of thier reputation. The whole "purity" rhetoric makes me want to puke.

this is a bit of a slight derail question, but you seem to be a wealth of knowledge on the "inner politics" of this bjj stuff, would you mind elaborating on this a little? i'm genuinely curious about this - i was brainwashed enough to think that this kind of thing wouldn't happen in our sport.

[sapateiro]

(post edited after clarification from Pauli - thanks).

I'm opting out because the conversation has now become a pointless pissing contest. To the original poster - if you want any more info on training the gracie combatives programme outside of the army, feel free to PM me, and I'll do what I can to help.

[pauli]

i believe yrkoon is obliquely relating his experience with the skill level of professional combatives instructors, and laughing about it, rather than laughing at something you said specifically.

[jnp]

So, you carefully quoted my post, missing out the 'on the street its a last resort' so you could tell me pulling guard on the street is a last resort and that I'm retarded? Just so I understand....?

I'll say it again, pulling guard on the street is retarded. If you meant being pushed down or being taken down and clinching up with the guy in a manner that gives you decent position when you hit the ground, then I understand where you're coming from.

This is an internet forum. In the absence of verbal or visual cues, I interpreted your words at face value.

So which is it? Define the meaning of the phrase "last resort". In other words, would you pull guard on someone in a street fight if you weren't already going down?

I don't care if you think I have something to prove. I'll be damned if I let someone in my art advise anyone to pull guard on the street and not object.

[Diesel_tke]

I can understand the need for the regimented environment in the police or military, it's just a shame if open questions aren't encouraged IMO. I learn a lot from the questions received, and sometimes a complete novice can make an observation I've never considered before simply because he/she's thinking from a different perspective. The first thing I usually do when someone says 'but I'd do this' is to ask them to do it on me, then talk through the pros and cons with the class.

When you're allowed to discuss this guard pass, are changes to the syllabus considered as a result? The US military has always been well respected in terms of its investment in its troops, so perhaps a minor change could be accomodated when jiu jitsu is still progressing. A lot of the british soldiers get very little in comparison from what I've heard.

There is a huge difference between teaching to military and law enforcement. Mostly because the military are at war and can use deadly force. They have a lot different rules than we do. In law enforcement we have to operate along a use of force guideline. The people we fight have rights that we are not allowed to violate. We are forced to use the minimum amount of force necessary to quell a desterbance. So if the perp de-escilates, then we have to de-escilate.

So when combatives is taught there are no variations allowed because the techniques used are approved by the state government. They are the only ones that we can use do defend ourselves. So when we get put on trial, we can defend our actions.

[fidgit]

Yes, you can find the FM online. I don't know how the military does it but I know how Law Enforcement does it. Everything done in class is official and you are not allowed to give your "opinion" about what it correct and what isn't. But it is common to have discussions about techniques outside of class for those people who are interested. That is where the alternates to the gracie gift are "discussed".

I'm sure you understand that police officers don't operate with the same rule set that an Infantryman does. As an NCO, it's my job to teach my soldiers to the best of my ability to keep them alive, and if showing them a good guard pass after teaching the crap level 1 pass is how I have to do it, than so be it.