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  1. fidgit is offline
    fidgit's Avatar

    Defense Against the Homeless Seminar, 2008

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    Posted On:
    8/22/2008 8:50pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, MACP, Guns

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    Lemme just stop you right there.

    You see that tag next to my name? And next to several of the guys in this thread? The one that says MILITARY? It means that many of us have actually had to endure drill after drill after drill of THE GRACIE COMBATIVES as taught to SFC LARSON by ROYCE GRACIE. Theres a few other cheese dick moves in the curriculum, but the Gracie Gift is taught at the PRIMARY guard pass.


    Second of all they teach the Gracie Gift in basic training all the way through certification TO OUR SOLDIERS. That erks the **** out of me. Teaching flawed bullshit to guys who fight for a living is downright unethical. I wouldn't go out and teach my soldiers how to line up shoulder to shoulder and walk towards the enemy in some kind of civil war era technique either.
    A question for all the other Combatives instructors: Do you guys actually teach the pass? I usually do with a disclaimer: I'm teaching this because the Army wants me to, but don't do this for real. I usually will show them the pass, and then a safer variation (keeping the inside arm pressed against the inside of the leg, elbow at the knee, instead of at the bicep so it can control the legs or be pulled out easily when a triangle is attempted).

    I'm of two minds with drill 1. I hated it at first, due to the obvious flaws. I hate it a little less, since the average enemy combatant we face probably won't know the counter, or how to pull guard for that matter.
  2. lionknight is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    8/22/2008 8:50pm


     Style: Much striking, SAMBO, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sapateiro
    http://www.graciejiujitsu.co.za/default.asp?pageid=2425

    - 15 hours per week of combatives + another 4-5 hours of privates
    - 4 hours per week of advanced techniques, either combative or sportive
    - 1 hour per week of open mat to test these techniques against others.

    And also reflex development classes, and fight sim.
    So wait… is this not you admitting that all those people you claimed won in the tournament with just Gracie Combatives actually had training outside of the Combatives training?
  3. fidgit is offline
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    Defense Against the Homeless Seminar, 2008

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    Posted On:
    8/22/2008 8:53pm

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     Style: BJJ, MACP, Guns

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sapateiro
    I'd be interested to see the miltary syllabus & how it compares to the we teach (34 techniques broken down over 22 classes).
    The average soldier gets about 10 hours a year, unless they attend the level 1 course. The level one curriculum is pretty basic; all of the major positions, arm bars from guard and the mount, a couple of sweeps from the guard, one guard pass, escape the mount, escape the rear mount, chokes etc. The level one certification is a 40 hour class over 5 days. I'm not really sure if I can post an actual syllabus (OPSEC and all). You may be able to find the FM online.
  4. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/23/2008 8:15am

    Join us... or die
     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes, you can find the FM online. I don't know how the military does it but I know how Law Enforcement does it. Everything done in class is official and you are not allowed to give your "opinion" about what it correct and what isn't. But it is common to have discussions about techniques outside of class for those people who are interested. That is where the alternates to the gracie gift are "discussed".
  5. sapateiro is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/23/2008 12:20pm


     Style: BJJ/GJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Phew… You guys have been busy.

    Quote Originally Posted by jnp
    The reason I'm calling you foolish is your general ignorance about the U.S. combatives course
    Have a look at the title of this thread, it says GRACIE combatives, and the question was whether you could learn it outside of the military. My answers to the poster was YES, based on the fact that I teach the GRACIE combatives course fulltime, outside of the miltary. If you know so much about the programme, then why didn’t you answer the original poster & help him out with his question?

    Quote Originally Posted by jnp
    What I do know is that some of your comments about sport jits versus street jits set off some alarm bells. We understand that upside down guard isn't a move you bust out in a streetfight, but many of the sportive techniques work perfectly well in a real altercation.
    Read my post again – I said “The core stuff translates into sportive competition, but it doesn't necessarily work the other way round”.

    I didn’t say that ALL sportive techniques were useless on the streets, and I enjoy the sportive stuff, but I do think that a lot of them can get you in trouble. Here’s a couple of examples:

    1. Pulling guard. The sportive version (jumping up & wrapping legs) leaves you open to a slam. On concrete that’ll probably be the end of your fight. The G.C. version avoids this.
    2. Double leg. The sportive version means dropping your knee onto the ground (which could mean a busted kneecap, ask Renzo), and also involves you lifting your opponent (which is ok with a matched fight but not if the opponent outweighs you by very much). The G.C. version avoids both these issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by UpaLumpa
    So you train to fight the lowest common denominator?
    Why not train as if you may, possibly have to fight someone not retarded?
    Because the Gracie Combatives system is about self defense against a guy on the street, not about a sport match or an MMA fight. The point of the combatives programme was to teach in the shortest possible time, and it takes more than 10 hours a year to learn the counter-to his counter-to your counter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    You see that tag next to my name? And next to several of the guys in this thread? The one that says MILITARY?
    :hello2:

    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    It means that many of us have actually had to endure drill after drill after drill of THE GRACIE COMBATIVES as taught to SFC LARSON by ROYCE GRACIE.
    So, are you actually a combatives instructor? I’ve not learned from someone who learned from a Gracie, but have been lucky enough to have been taught directly by the family, including Helio, Rorion, Royce, Rener, Ryron, Royler, Rolker, Ralek, and Carlos Gracie Junior.

    Quote Originally Posted by lionknight
    So wait… is this not you admitting that all those people you claimed won in the tournament with just Gracie Combatives actually had training outside of the Combatives training?
    Please reread my post – “The original poster was asking about the combatives programme? The combatives techniques that were used most were things like maintaining the mount, armbar from mount, twisting arm control, RNC etc. So, in my experience, the combatives does translate into sport jiu jitsu.

    I hope this helps.”

    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake

    So, I doubt they teach the Gracie Combative program to the students.

    *Edit*

    In the way he keeps implying.
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake

    If he is teaching the combatives program at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    Y9 and Jnp rarely post trivial stuff so, I'd believe them anyway. The fact they are both US Military and you are in Cape Town.....see where I'm going?
    So, call Rorion (who invented the Gracie Combatives), and ask him if Gary in South Africa teaches the programme. And ask him to say hi to the boys too.
    .
    Last edited by sapateiro; 8/23/2008 2:36pm at .
  6. pauli is offline

    i keep tryin to spar, but nothin happens!

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    Posted On:
    8/23/2008 2:05pm

    supporting member
     Style: karate / bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sapateiro
    I didn’t say that ALL sportive techniques were useless on the streets, and I enjoy the sportive stuff, but I do think that a lot of them can get you in trouble. Here’s a couple of examples:

    1. Pulling guard. The sportive version (jumping up & wrapping legs) leaves you open to a slam. On concrete that’ll probably be the end of your fight. The G.C. version avoids this.
    2. Double leg. The sportive version means dropping your knee onto the ground (which could mean a busted kneecap, ask Renzo), and also involves you lifting your opponent (which is ok with a matched fight but not if the opponent outweighs you by very much). The G.C. version avoids both these issues.
    oh dear god.
  7. lionknight is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/23/2008 2:55pm


     Style: Much striking, SAMBO, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sapateiro
    1. Pulling guard. The sportive version (jumping up & wrapping legs) leaves you open to a slam. On concrete that’ll probably be the end of your fight. The G.C. version avoids this.
    2. Double leg. The sportive version means dropping your knee onto the ground (which could mean a busted kneecap, ask Renzo), and also involves you lifting your opponent (which is ok with a matched fight but not if the opponent outweighs you by very much). The G.C. version avoids both these issues.

    .
    OMG...

    Ok I just have to ask:

    How does the Gracie Comabtives teach you to pull guard in a street fight?
  8. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    8/23/2008 7:30pm

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     Style: 5.56

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sapateiro
    So, are you actually a combatives instructor? I’ve not learned from someone who learned from a Gracie, but have been lucky enough to have been taught directly by the family, including Helio, Rorion, Royce, Rener, Ryron, Royler, Rolker, Ralek, and Carlos Gracie Junior.
    I'm an officer. I don't teach ****. NCO's do that. All I do is crush people. But I don't have to teach it to have taken the Gracie Combatives. I've groaned my way through there drills more times than I can count.

    Quote Originally Posted by sapateiro
    So, call Rorion (who invented the Gracie Combatives), and ask him if Gary in South Africa teaches the programme. And ask him to say hi to the boys too.
    .
    LOL @ name dropping all over this thread. Your head is so far up the Gracie's ass it is sad. Unfortunately the names you keep dropping have been notorious for holding students back, and teaching archaic and flawed techniques.

    If you want to compare dick sizes my first lesson with Rickson and Royler was back in 1997. I've been to Rio, competed at the Mundials, and just about every venue known to man. Since then I have trained with more people than you can probably count. From the earliest UFC champs to todays. But I have never taken lessons from Rorion/Helio because of thier reputation. The whole "purity" rhetoric makes me want to puke.
  9. sapateiro is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2008 4:42am


     Style: BJJ/GJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lionknight
    OMG...

    Ok I just have to ask:

    How does the Gracie Comabtives teach you to pull guard in a street fight?
    When I was living in Barra & training purely sportive it really concerned me that I'd revert to form in a street confrontation as my tourney strategy was to pull (ie jump) guard. On the street it's a last resort obviously.

    Let's say you've closed the distance on an aggressive or conservative opponent, and have tried to gain the top position via a bodyfold or leghook takedown, but have failed because his hips are too far back & his weight in leaning in (ie too much to drop for a single/double). Instead of jumping your legs behind him, you

    -release the hook grip on his hips
    -move your hands one at a time to cup his shoulders from rear (to stop him from posturing)
    -step your feet in towards him (either outside of his feet, or on them if he's tall or has a wide base).
    * all thru this your weight should be hanging off his shoulders so step in, but leave your hips out *
    -drop into a sitting position pulling him with you (the motion should be vertical initially, then straightening your legs before hitting the ground to gain space between his knee and your family jewels :)
    -transition to guard punch-block series stage one otherwise he's going to be punching you in the face.

    The most common mistakes during this one are the ones that allow the opponent some posture, like trying to move two hands to the shoulders at once, or allowing your hips to get closer to the opponent when stepping in. Sometimes guys don't extend their legs enough when sitting & catch a knee... This normally only happens the once ;-). Also when drilling this in class, it's good to extend your arms slightly in the middle of the sitting motion - otherwise you smash your opponents jaw on your shoulder (which is obviously fine in a real situation!).

    So, it's an alternative to the jumping style of pulling guard which minimises the chance of you getting slammed. It's not for MMA, or for sport BJJ - it's purely for self defense, and we pressure-test it with the gloves (but not as a boxer, I'd definitely drop for the double/single then as opposed to closing the distance with a high clinch).

    I hope this helps.
  10. sapateiro is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2008 4:45am


     Style: BJJ/GJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    I don't teach ****.
    Ok - thanks for clearing that up.
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