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  1. sapateiro is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/22/2008 7:41am


     Style: BJJ/GJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Das Moose
    Honestly sapteiro while I can see where you're coming from, but answer me this - why do they need to pass the guard of someone who doesn't even know what a triangle is?
    Because inside the open guard is the position that you get in when you've just upa'd your attacker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Das Moose
    And I totally disagree with your poitn about "a complicated multi-step guard pass" - even the gracie gift is (for a beginner) complicated and has several steps. A double underhook pass is very similar with a small difference, would be just as easy to teach and a tonne safer. So why teach the gracie gift instead?
    Sorry, but I'm not sure what all this 'gracie gift' talk is about... I assumed it was just someone making a sarcastic comment, but is it referring to a particular technique?

    The 2 combatives passes we teach are very easy. Open guard = 4 steps (including the headbutt). Closed guard (less likely, but just in case the attacker crosses his ankles) = 4 steps. The students pick them up very easy, and their always drilled at the end of a class along with associated techniques, and sometimes with boxing gloves on to improve the technique under pressure.
  2. Das Moose is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/22/2008 7:49am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The gracie gift refers to a guardpass where you're inside the closed guard, reach back with one arm to open the guard then stack pass that way - while leaving the other arm inside. I.e. triangle city.

  3. sapateiro is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/22/2008 10:13am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So, do you think this technique is in the combatives programme?

    Nope.

    This was recorded long time ago (checkout Rorions tashe & Royce training at the academy). The closed guard pass in the combatives programme involves throwing down some slaps.

    So, please guys, try to understand something before you critisise it. I've come on this forum to offer help & opinions to people trying to start/learn jiu jitsu and most of the responses I've got have been sarcastic rants or half-baked opinions without any foundation. I teach about 20 hours of the combatives programme every week & I'm happy to help anyone with an open mind and a genuine question.

    And I agree that for a sportive guard pass the triangle counter is very important.
    Last edited by sapateiro; 8/22/2008 10:16am at .
  4. jnp is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/22/2008 10:22am

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    Quote Originally Posted by sapateiro
    So, do you think this technique is in the combatives programme?

    Nope.

    This was recorded long time ago (checkout Rorions tashe & Royce training at the academy). The closed guard pass in the combatives programme involves throwing down some slaps.

    So, please guys, try to understand something before you critisise it. I've come on this forum to offer help & opinions to people trying to start/learn jiu jitsu and most of the responses I've got have been sarcastic rants or half-baked opinions without any foundation. I teach about 20 hours of the combatives programme every week & I'm happy to help anyone with an open mind and a genuine question.

    And I agree that for a sportive guard pass the triangle counter is very important.
    Some of the members here are U.S. military H2H combatives instructors. Many of us know far more about this course than you think we do. We also know why the Gracie Gift pass was originally taught to beginners in the U.S.

    You apparently do not. Your lack of knowledge regarding this subject is making you look foolish.

    Regarding the bold statement, I don't think you're qualified to give advice to anyone on this forum.
  5. sapateiro is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/22/2008 10:27am


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    Please re-read my post. It says that the technique was never in the combatives programme. That is a fact.

    Please learn to read before calling others foolish.
  6. jnp is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/22/2008 10:42am

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    Quote Originally Posted by sapateiro
    Please re-read my post. It says that the technique was never in the combatives programme. That is a fact.

    Please learn to read before calling others foolish.
    That's not why I'm calling you foolish. The reason I'm calling you foolish is your general ignorance about the U.S. combatives course and it's history, but you're right, I could have worded my post more clearly. Let me be more specific. Comments like these,

    Quote Originally Posted by sapateiro
    Obviously the US army do, otherwise they'd be perfecting their rubberguard instead of doing the combatives programme wouldn't they?
    indicate you are unaware if the controversy surrounding the Gracie's combatives course taught to the U.S. military, including, most notably, the Gracie gift pass. Maybe the course you teach is different enough that the controversy doesn't apply to you. I admit I assumed you taught the same course as is taught in the U.S. military.

    So if that pass isn't taught in your curriculum, you're not teaching the same combatives course as the U.S. That could be good or bad, I don't know. What I do know is that some of your comments about sport jits versus street jits set off some alarm bells. We understand that upside down guard isn't a move you bust out in a streetfight, but many of the sportive techniques work perfectly well in a real altercation.

    I hope this is more clear.
  7. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/22/2008 11:18am

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    Quote Originally Posted by sapateiro
    Please re-read my post. It says that the technique was never in the combatives programme. That is a fact.

    Please learn to read before calling others foolish.

    Lemme just stop you right there.

    You see that tag next to my name? And next to several of the guys in this thread? The one that says MILITARY? It means that many of us have actually had to endure drill after drill after drill of THE GRACIE COMBATIVES as taught to SFC LARSON by ROYCE GRACIE. Theres a few other cheese dick moves in the curriculum, but the Gracie Gift is taught at the PRIMARY guard pass.

    I'm going to stop your next argument right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by sapateiro
    This was recorded long time ago (checkout Rorions tashe & Royce training at the academy). The closed guard pass in the combatives programme involves throwing down some slaps.
    Back in 1999 I was at Beverly Hills Jiu Jitsu club with guys like Ethan Milius and Marc Laimon. These are two of the guys that made the exodus from Rorian/Royce because of cheese dick **** like the being held back and taught bullshit BACK IN THE MID 90's. And THEY were taught the Gracie Gift.

    This was when I was a lowly white belt who didn't know any better. But I knew the triangle. And when Torrance guys would come to our school to roll (at the time they rolled like 1x per week and went elsewhere to get more in) they would get smashed. Experienced blue belts would try this bullshit on me (and others) and would be tapped from triangle after triangle. They would come back weeks later where it would happen again and again. I was genuinely amazed.

    So - don't come back with this **** about the Gracie Gift never being taught in the Gracie Combatives program. Its been there since the dawn of time and those of us who have had to endure its long lasting effects ie "Drill 1" simply laugh. Because we have a lot of personal experience. And this this subject has already been drilled down to the core long before you arrived - and quite honestly, it sounds, long before you got into jiu jitsu.

    Quote Originally Posted by sapateiro
    We teach the 2 combatives guard passes (open & closed guard) and then the sportive passes for our more advanced students. The thing that most people forget is that the combatives programme is to defend yourself against someone on the street. Go out on a saturday night, and ask the guys at the local bar how to put a triangle on. Of course they don't know what a triangle is. So why, when you're trying to arm your students with techniques in the shortest possible time, would you include a triangle counter?
    This is the part that is near and dear to my heart.

    For 2 reasons.

    First of all, MMA and jiu jitsu ain't a big secret anymore! Any "local bar" you go to these days actually has people who have seen, if not trained in MMA/jiu jitsu and know exactly what a triangle is. Heck, Judo, one the worlds most popular sports has a triangle in its curriculum.

    Second of all they teach the Gracie Gift in basic training all the way through certification TO OUR SOLDIERS. That erks the **** out of me. Teaching flawed bullshit to guys who fight for a living is downright unethical. I wouldn't go out and teach my soldiers how to line up shoulder to shoulder and walk towards the enemy in some kind of civil war era technique either.

    Others may not being calling you foolish. I am calling your foolish. Continue on in this manner, banging your head against the solid wall of reality, and you are just going to get laughed at.
  8. jnp is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/22/2008 11:30am

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    Somebody woke up the big dogs.
  9. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/22/2008 11:49am

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    Cereal.
  10. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/22/2008 11:51am

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    Quote Originally Posted by sapateiro
    the thing that most people forget is that the combatives programme is to defend yourself against someone on the street. Go out on a saturday night, and ask the guys at the local bar how to put a triangle on. Of course they don't know what a triangle is. So why, when you're trying to arm your student
    So you train to fight the lowest common denominator?
    Why not train as if you may, possibly have to fight someone not retarded?

    Quote Originally Posted by sapateiro
    Because inside the open guard is the position that you get in when you've just upa'd your attacker.
    If you don't have to worry about them triangling you, you can probably gnp them quite effectively while inside guard.
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