Krav Maga knife defence!

**1point2** · Posted On: 7/24/2008 3:45pm

Techniques you disagree with != bullshido
Illegitimate or faked credentials = bullshido
Stupid marketing & poor techniques = mcdojoism

You have less than a year of training, and you disagree with a move someone else is teaching...tell me again why we care?

**Morph** · Posted On: 7/24/2008 3:57pm

[quote=1point2]Techniques you disagree with != bullshido
Illegitimate or faked credentials = bullshido
Stupid marketing & poor techniques = mcdojoism
[quote]

Ok, those points are well noted... So it's more of a mcdojo situation.

.. and to answer the question..............."why not?"

**AlphaFoxtrot51** · Posted On: 7/24/2008 3:59pm

Originally Posted by Morph

Your in the military huh??? hmmm... well, yes, I guess that would be okay, HUH??

Arteries in the forearm:

1 brachial
2 radial
3 radial recurrent
4 superficial radial
5 deep radial
6 ulnar
7 anterior ulnar recurrent
7 posterior ulnar recurrent
8 common interosseous
9 posterior interosseous
10 anterior interosseous
11 superficial branch
12 deep branch

Hopefully you're not bleeding too profusely while trying to kick me nuts!

The object is NOT to get cut, run the hell away, solider!

Ok...well since you decided that you're going to try and insult my intelligence as a soldier. How about I post the rest of what I do. I'm also an EMT and finishing up my B.S. so I can go to Med. School.

I throughly enjoyed this post because you took a peek at comcast.net to find all of them, and because of what you posted, you obviously don't really know where they are, or the volume of blood they transport. I'll make this simple without even using the arteries that you posted, or medical terminology.

Slash to the inside of the arm is treatable most of the time at field level.
Stab to the torso is FATAL most of the time at all levels.

Now I'm going to embarrass you:

Exsanguination is the process of losing blood, aka Bleeding out. The farther away from the heart you get, the smaller the TxPing blood vessels become, and when you get far enough away, all you have are capillary exchange points; therefore, a knife attack that lands on forearm is potentially less fatal than a strike anywhere in your abdominal and thoracic cavity. While yes, you have those arteries that you listed your arm...in your torso (not including the neck) you have the following:

THORACIC CAVITY:
1.) Subclavian - Fatal within 60 seconds if severed
2.) Brachiocephalic - Fatal within 30 seconds if severed
3.) Axillary - Fatal within 90 seconds if severed
4.) Pulmonary (Artery/Vein Series) - Fatal almost instantaneously when severed
5.) Aorta - Fatal almost instantaneously when severed
6.) Splenic - Fatal almost instantaneously when severed

ABDOMINAL CAVITY:
1.) Hepatic - Fatal if not treated due to organ failure
2.) Renal - Fatal if not treated due to organ failure
3.) Iliac - Fatal within 120 seconds if severed

INTERNAL ORGANS:
1.) Appendix - Releases toxins into the abdominal cavity causing pain and can be fatal
2.) Bladder - Acid and waste into the abdominal cavity causing the above
3.) Bile Duct - Bile into the abdominal cavity causing the above
4.) Reproductive Organs - Reproductive system failure, and can cause hypovolemia
5.) Gallbladder - Bile and toxins into the abdominal cavity...see above
6.) Intestines - Waste and bacteria causing massive infection in Abd. Cav.
7.) Stomach - Acid and enzymes causing pain, infection and death
8.) Kidneys - Complete renal failure
9.) Liver - Liver failure, body becomes poisoned
10.) Pancreas - Insulin shock and system failure
11.) Spleen - Enymes released into the abdominal cavity
12.) Heart - Fatal almost immediately if punctured
13.) Lungs - Tension Pneumothorax, lung collapse, respitory failure/arrest
14.) Spinal Cord - Paralysis and/or death

Your right...the forearm produces a greater lifethreat...I should throw out my textbooks and take it on faith that you know what you're talking about.

Just so you know, there's no way to stop internal bleeding in the field...it has to be done at the hospital.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Morph

Exactly, dumbass... the video was showing things like blocking with the UNDERSIDE of the forearm... I have read a book and took anatomy classes.... What have you done?? :)

You didn't post the video...so how do we know what part of his arm he used??

**Permalost** · Posted On: 7/24/2008 4:10pm

I come from a FMA background, and I think grabbing the arm is essential in an unarmed vs knife defense. Look up STAB on youtube. At knife range, its very hard to defend against individual attacks because a knife is very fast. A stick needs some windup, but with a knife you can just reach out and touch. I've tried this with a number of people, and you should too- get a rubber knife and try to stab and cut them as much as possible. The first round, have them try to block your attacks. The next round, have them control your arm. The results are almost universally better the second time. The concern then becomes them switching the knife to the other hand, but there are ways around this. Doing all this while kicking the balls sounds even better. Its also worth noting that krav maga teaches forearm blocking while striking as a generic response to attacks, so your point makes even less sense. The block + strike would be the response to a single attack, the grabbing if they close in for the sewing maching.

What would you suggest as a better solution to knife defense?

**Morph** · Posted On: 7/24/2008 4:11pm

Originally Posted by AlphaFoxtrot51

Ok...well since you decided that you're going to try and insult my intelligence as a soldier. How about I post the rest of what I do. I'm also an EMT and finishing up my B.S. so I can go to Med. School.

I throughly enjoyed this post because you took a peek at comcast.net to find all of them, and because of what you posted, you obviously don't really know where they are, or the volume of blood they transport. I'll make this simple without even using the arteries that you posted, or medical terminology.

Slash to the inside of the arm is treatable most of the time at field level.
Stab to the torso is FATAL most of the time at all levels.

Now I'm going to embarrass you:

Exsanguination is the process of losing blood, aka Bleeding out. The farther away from the heart you get, the smaller the TxPing blood vessels become, and when you get far enough away, all you have are capillary exchange points; therefore, a knife attack that lands on forearm is potentially less fatal than a strike anywhere in your abdominal and thoracic cavity. While yes, you have those arteries that you listed your arm...in your torso (not including the neck) you have the following:

THORACIC CAVITY:
1.) Subclavian - Fatal within 60 seconds if severed
2.) Brachiocephalic - Fatal within 30 seconds if severed
3.) Axillary - Fatal within 90 seconds if severed
4.) Pulmonary (Artery/Vein Series) - Fatal almost instantaneously when severed
5.) Aorta - Fatal almost instantaneously when severed
6.) Splenic - Fatal almost instantaneously when severed

ABDOMINAL CAVITY:
1.) Hepatic - Fatal if not treated due to organ failure
2.) Renal - Fatal if not treated due to organ failure
3.) Iliac - Fatal within 120 seconds if severed

INTERNAL ORGANS:
1.) Appendix - Releases toxins into the abdominal cavity causing pain and can be fatal
2.) Bladder - Acid and waste into the abdominal cavity causing the above
3.) Bile Duct - Bile into the abdominal cavity causing the above
4.) Reproductive Organs - Reproductive system failure, and can cause hypovolemia
5.) Gallbladder - Bile and toxins into the abdominal cavity...see above
6.) Intestines - Waste and bacteria causing massive infection in Abd. Cav.
7.) Stomach - Acid and enzymes causing pain, infection and death
8.) Kidneys - Complete renal failure
9.) Liver - Liver failure, body becomes poisoned
10.) Pancreas - Insulin shock and system failure
11.) Spleen - Enymes released into the abdominal cavity
12.) Heart - Fatal almost immediately if punctured
13.) Lungs - Tension Pneumothorax, lung collapse, respitory failure/arrest
14.) Spinal Cord - Paralysis and/or death

Your right...the forearm produces a greater lifethreat...I should throw out my textbooks and take it on faith that you know what you're talking about.

Just so you know, there's no way to stop internal bleeding in the field...it has to be done at the hospital.

EDIT:

You didn't post the video...so how do we know what part of his arm he used??

Look, I'm not trying to "pick a fight" with you. I respect the fact that you're a soldier and you're doing your part to protect the country. Now with that being said, you do not know my background also. Yes, I am currently in the technology field, BUT I am also in the process of a career change and will be taking the MCAT in May. I'm not going to list the classes (or books read, tests) I have taken, but I am well on my way into the medical field in some capacity, MD, PA, CRNA. So now that we both have established our credentials, allow me to say that I am NOT disagreeing with you with regard to what body part is a better sacrifice, but when you are cut, and it doesn't take much a 3 inch blade can cut deep towards the bone, it's a bad and traumatic situation. Especially for someone that's not used to being cut. And in a dark parking lot, most Krav Maga practioners don't have a "field medic" handy to suture them. So the object is ALWAYS to NEVER get cut. What they are showing are last resort techniques and also in a bad way.

The femoral artery can also be a bad location... Like I said... no one wants to get sliced.

**AlphaFoxtrot51** · Posted On: 7/24/2008 4:13pm

Originally Posted by CodosDePiedra

I come from a FMA background, and I think grabbing the arm is essential in an unarmed vs knife defense. Look up STAB on youtube. At knife range, its very hard to defend against individual attacks because a knife is very fast. A stick needs some windup, but with a knife you can just reach out and touch. I've tried this with a number of people, and you should too- get a rubber knife and try to stab and cut them as much as possible. The first round, have them try to block your attacks. The next round, have them control your arm. The results are almost universally better the second time. The concern then becomes them switching the knife to the other hand, but there are ways around this. Doing all this while kicking the balls sounds even better. Its also worth noting that krav maga teaches forearm blocking while striking as a generic response to attacks, so your point makes even less sense. The block + strike would be the response to a single attack, the grabbing if they close in for the sewing maching.

What would you suggest as a better solution to knife defense?

I would suggest not engaging and taking the heel-toe express out of there. But when if that's not possible...do what you have to do. I like the 5 D's...Dodge Dip Duck Dive and Dodge

**Wounded Ronin** · Posted On: 7/24/2008 4:14pm

Taking the MCAT in May? So you haven't started your first year of med school yet?

**Morph** · Posted On: 7/24/2008 4:16pm

Originally Posted by Wounded Ronin

Taking the MCAT in May? So you haven't started your first year of med school yet?

haha.. No, I have not... But that doesn't mean I don't know that 'unarmed v.s. knife' is bad for anyone. :(

**AlphaFoxtrot51** · Posted On: 7/24/2008 4:19pm

Originally Posted by Morph

Look, I'm not trying to "pick a fight" with you. I respect the fact that you're a soldier and you're doing your part to protect the country. Now with that being said, you do not know my background also. Yes, I am currently in the technology field, BUT I am also in the process of a career change and will be taking the MCAT in May. I'm not going to list the classes (or books read, tests) I have taken, but I am well on my way into the medical field in some capacity, MD, PA, CRNA. So now that we both have established our credentials, allow me to say that I am NOT disagreeing with you with regard to what body part is a better sacrifice, but when you are cut, and it doesn't take much a 3 inch blade can cut deep towards the bone, it's a bad and traumatic situation. Especially for someone that's not used to being cut. And in a dark parking lot, most Krav Maga practioners don't have a "field medic" handy to suture them. So the object is ALWAYS to NEVER get cut. What they are showing are last resort techniques and also in a bad way.

The femoral artery can also be a bad location... Like I said... no one wants to get sliced.

I didn't list the femoral artery because it's not in the abdominal cavity, it's in the lower extremities. And you don't need a field medic, it's applied pressure to the Brachial Artery and elevation, if worse comes to worse you can use a belt and a balled up sock at a pressure point to help slow bleeding until help arrives. What I meant by field, was you have a greater chance of stemming bleeding in the field with an arm injury as opposed to a thoracic or abdominal injury. You can stop bleeding that you don't have access to...that was my point.