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  1. shinbushi is offline
    shinbushi's Avatar

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    Posted On:
    11/13/2002 7:31pm


     Style: Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    2-man kata should only be used to intro a technique. Work on the actual mechanics, and what result you are looking for. You then have to drill it full speed so you can you it in sparring.
    Then spar, pummel or roll and try to include it into your game.

    To win an unarmed conflict don't stay unarmed
  2. KC Elbows

    Guest

    Posted On:
    11/13/2002 8:28pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Again, it is still a valid mnemonic tool, and no one has been able to dispute this yet.
  3. Nihilanthic is offline

    Decafinated white belt.

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    Posted On:
    11/13/2002 10:17pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You don't lose techinques by not doing kata. You can still teach techniques without ever doing a kata. My kata issue is that people do a bunch of moves one after another and try to deduce this move means this or whatever, and don't drill the move itself, or use it fighting (sparring). Applying it in a fight when the other person isn't cooperating and you won't even nessecarily use it at all is how you get good with it, not just performing the motions. USE it, don't just fightsurbate.

    And no, you can still teach those "hundreds of techniques" by themselves.

    <Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
    <John> I'd have to smack you sometime...
    Katana, on 540 kicks: "Hang from a ceiling fan with both hands. Flail your feet out and ask people to walk into you as you hit their face."
  4. blueskycomplex is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/13/2002 11:33pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Forms are not neccissary. They are not a requirment to be a martial artist. However, forms are benificial. You WILL improve your balance, coordination, and form. You can improve those other ways, but that doesn't mean forms are useless. It's an exercise you can do by yourself with no need for equipment, and as KC pointed out it is a good nmemonic device for remembering techniques. IMO forms should be a small portion of your workouts with sparring, shadowboxing, and more physical exercises being your main workout. I like forms because they add variety to my workout, it just keeps it interesting and I don't get bored as easy. Once you have forms down they start to lose their benificialness. To become a better fighter you need to do more FIGHTING. Anyway, that's my view on forms.
  5. Boyd is offline
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    OFFICIAL Mayor of Cwcville

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    Posted On:
    11/14/2002 6:51am

    supporting member
     Style: Electricity, Speed

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You don't lose techinques by not doing kata. You can still teach techniques without ever doing a kata.
    True dat, but have you ever tried to remember hundreds of different responses to hundreds of different techniques? I think KC put it best when he described it as a mnemonic device.

    As we all know, martial arts have remained stagnent for a long time, and frankly, I think they're still way behind the rest of the world.
    I mean, for Christ's sake, 80% of all martial arts knowledge is still being passed down orally! Yeah, you could argue in favor of books, but then you'd have to produce at least 10 that don't suck. With kata, you've got a way of memorizing everything at your disposal.

    My kata issue is that people do a bunch of moves one after another and try to deduce this move means this or whatever
    At this point I'm afraid I'm going to have to sigh loudly, kind sir. Like I said, we already know WHAT the move means. But finding other ways of using the move, to make it more universaly applicable, is where the interpretation comes in.

    and don't drill the move itself, or use it fighting (sparring.
    Yeah, but now you're just falling back on stereotypes of traditional martial artists sitting in horse stance for hours on end in front of a sunset whilst drinking chai. You think people who never practice their moves are shitty fighters? GRACIOUS!!!HERESY IN ADDITION!! What's that got to do with anything? How often a person drills themself is completely unrelated to whether or not they do kata. And kata works especially well for people like me, who hit the heavy bag until their knuckles are one giant misshapen bruise, but whose only potential training partner--a wrestler, no less--is TOO AFRAID TO SPAR WITH ME. I can't practice throws and deflections on a bag. It's that simple. But I don't want to be making excuses for my lazy ass, so I do the closest thing: the motions.

    Applying it in a fight when the other person isn't cooperating and you won't even nessecarily use it at all is how you get good with it, not just performing the motions.
    Wait, haven't you just been making mad, angry, throbbing love to the concept of two-man drills this entire thread? Why are you automatically assuming that if I DO perform drills with a person, I'm going to tell them to let me do it? You're putting kata practioners in a Catch-22 here. You criticize them for not drilling (based entirely on assumption, of course, since you didn't even know what kata is at the beginning of this discussion), then you go and make ANOTHER insane assumption that if what we're doing works, then we must be practicing wrong. Ya know Nihilly, when you make assumptions, you make an "ass" of "u" and "mption".

    USE it, don't just fightsurbate.
    Sometimes, me and a friend have kickboxing matches, but he only permits use of pelvic thrusts. Is that fightsurbating? Or is it just flat-out gay sex?

    And no, you can still teach those "hundreds of techniques" by themselves.
    But then you'd need some definitive reference source to keep track of all of them. How would you do that? Create a governing body? Write a tawdry tell-all book? Remember, the martial arts, especially traditional ones, are incredibly fractured. Getting them to agree on ANYTHING would be like subscribing to Sam's Club, in taht you get great savings, but at what cost?
    Captain's Log: Just a little update for all my TRUE and HONEST friends out there:

    1) I am STRAIGHT! I am STRAIGHT! Get it through your thick skulls, numbskulls!

    2) My name is not Ian Brandon Something.

    3) Kacey is coming with me now. I have stolen her from the other Christian Weston Chandler.

    REMINDER: I am still the one and only true creator of sonichu and rosechu electric hedgehog pokemon
  6. Amir is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/14/2002 2:39pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "2-man kata should only be used to intro a technique. Work on the actual mechanics, and what result you are looking for. You then have to drill it full speed so you can you it in sparring.
    Then spar, pummel or roll and try to include it into your game."

    I disagree, 2 man Kata are the drill, a kata without intent is nothing. All those drills you talk about are 2 man Kata your teacher just invented, and they may be even better for you then an older Kata, but why not learn from other older sources as well.

    And as opposed to many of you, I don't believe you get good through practicing against an opposing person. You get good by doing the technique as good as you can. At first, this means an assisting partner, then a co-operating one, later a neutral one (yet intent in his attack), only then you would go for an opposing person.

    you would get the technique right, if you have done it right for lots of times (in the hundred thousands) on different people. Most of the times would be with a cooperative partner, only a minority would be an opposing one.

    Sparing, pummeling or rolling are important, but they are NOT the time to build your technical abilities. Those should be applied easily due to practice, leaving this type of training to develop other more important qualifications, such as sensitivity, tactical sense, timing, placement & position, and understanding the opportunity to apply the technique you already know.

    Amir
  7. J-kid is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/15/2002 9:54am


     Style: MMA-Vale Tudo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kata = suck way to learn.

    Shawn
    Once a fighter, Always a fighter. Shawn
    -Styles i train in-
    Judo
    Bjj
    Mtkickboxing
    Western boxing
    Wrestling
  8. SamHarber is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/15/2002 10:24am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was doing some hsing-i last night, an art that is almost all form, but anyone one on the recieving end isn't going to argue that its not effective. You don't need a sparring partner to learn how to generate power, just someone to tell you what you're doing wrong.

    "Not in the face!"
    Taking responsibility for my actions since 1989
  9. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2002 2:08am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A note on 2 man sets.

    They shouldn't be simply choreograhed fights. I've played them that way but eventually you have to stop giving it away for free.

    In one of the Hung gar 2 mans there is a point where the other guy has grabbed both your arms and your supposed to use a technique which simultaneously applies a wrist lock and faces smash. On most people this point in the form is just silly. Then there's this one guy who hangs sheet rock for a living. He always snickers at this point because he can actually grab you arms in a way that is damn hard to get out of. You have to really find the technique.

    There are other points where maybe attack and the other guy blocks and if my partner is new to the form I can just blast right through his block or change the angle or footwork slightly so he falls over. Both partners need to really push each other and find the weaknesses in each others techniques.

    I can throw a hook with the intent to smash his face. If I know how he tends to block I can throw a hook with the intent to rock his balance.

    If you don't do forms there will be certain situations you won't be prepared for. You will tend to only train a few basic techniques and make the most of them. That's good. I'm not advocating intentionaly using all that weird stuff but you DO occasionally find your self in some awkward situations.

    Mainly I look at is a progression:

    1. one man sets - basic skills, stances etc.and just plain physical conditioning. The vocabulary of your style. Learn this and then your instructor can conveniently give you advice. Every movement has a name. Instruction has a point of reference.

    2. 2 man sets - Applications. Only a very limited amount of many styles techniques can be used against a bag. Not jsut takedowns but slipping, grabbing, simultaneous blocking and striking, pulling his arm down to hit his pace etc. Also this makes the techniques NOT VAGUE.

    3. Sparring - Of course you should spar. Some people are naturally suited to this but many need some sort of intermediate steps between drilling single techniques and sparring. I used to do a lot more sparring than I do now. I didn't have the tools and I learned that sparring was scary and my technique all went out the window. Now I know that sparring is FUN! and my technique is much more varied and unpredictable because of the remedial work I spent on forms.

    Of course I feel some forms are WAY better than others.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
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