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  1. Amir is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/11/2002 1:55pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Mercurius got it right, Kata is just one aspect of training, if al you do is Kata, then you are missing something.
    A correct form of practice is involved of combining multiple elements: Kihon & Tai Sabaki, Kata, Randori & Kumite, with varying degrees along a never ending cycle, each time you return to the same point, but at an higher level, and find you still have things to learn from it.

    And to Nihilitic,
    You wrote that reaction isn't a part of Kata, apparently you didn't read my previous explanation on what is Kata. The guy I was referring to practiced 2 people weapons Kata, such Kata can not be performed correctly unless you react to your opponent and try to find his holes.
    Actually, from my point of view, those drills you spoke about - they are Kata. You know your opponent type of attack and which response you are supposed to do, i.e. Kata.

    Lots of different drills have a variation of benefits and drawbacks, any M.A. and teacher selects some of those trying to develop a full spectrum training which matches their goals. Trying to claim a M.A. is less effective just because it uses one type of practice without checking the entire curriculum is stupid.
  2. Nihilanthic is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/11/2002 8:55pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Its NIHILANTHIC, please spell it right. I'm not a nihilist... Nihilanth was the end-boss in Half-Life, so yeah, I'm a geek. And don't get me started on anime either.

    My issue with kata is its just a bunch of moves in sequential order. Period. Its more logical to me to drill technique on an object (pads, bag, people), tell about what it does, and then address how to deal with incoming techinque. Katas I've seen aren't really applicable to fighting, they seem to be more for aesthetic use than combat. Also, punching air doesn't prepare you for contact with anything. It teaches you to pull your punch instead of impacting. And all the kata I've seen look and act like a dance - you throw techniques, spin, yell, throw more techniques, take some odd stance, repeat. Comparing a combo to a kata is somewhat apt, but kata are often dozens of moves, and combos are short, logical chains of techniques that you can use in comfrontation. They're meant to be short, sweet, and give few opportunities to counter attack. Jab/cross/hook, jab/cross/thai roundhouse/ jab/cross/knee, etc... They ARE chains of techniques, but they're used on people. I don't see how many kata could be used on a person.

    But, this assumption that mastering a kata makes you a perfect fighter is completely false. It makes you a perfect kata performer. A big part of fighting is attacking/countering, and looking for an opening. I suppose it can be an introduction to chaining technique, but its far from a means to an end, unless you want to do forms in competition. A BIG component is just listening to those with experience about what to do, and when. Like, Punch you way inside. Get them to clam up high and throw a hard roundhouse to their leg. Make them drop their hands and nail their face. Keep your elbows down and in to your body if you need to cover against body shots. If you're allowed, and close enough, when they drop their hands, nail their jaw with an elbow. KEEP YOUR CHIN DOWN, along with YOUR SHOULDERS UP, is something everyone should learn in school, I think.

    <Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
    <John> I'd have to smack you sometime...
    Katana, on 540 kicks: "Hang from a ceiling fan with both hands. Flail your feet out and ask people to walk into you as you hit their face."
  3. Boyd is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/11/2002 9:58pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Katas I've seen aren't really applicable to fighting, they seem to be more for aesthetic use than combat. Also, punching air doesn't prepare you for contact with anything. It teaches you to pull your punch instead of impacting. And all the kata I've seen look and act like a dance - you throw techniques, spin, yell, throw more techniques, take some odd stance, repeat.

    Dear God. So are you telling me that you actually think that katas WERE MADE TO LOOK PRETTY?

    *swallows keyboard whole and eagerly awaits the sweet release of death*

    Of the course they look like a dance. That's just a coincidence. No kata, with the possible exception of some stuff in kung-fu (I'm completely ignorant on kung-fu forms, so please feel free to give me a disharmonious war hellride if I'm wrong here), was ever developed with aesthetics in mind. EVER. Before you breathe one more bad word about kata, understand that.

    Now, understand this: every movement in kata serves some purpose. Nothing is there for the sake of looking cool. True, there's a lot of bizarre hand and foot gestures that might seem completely abstract to the untrained eye, but ultimately, they serve as some sort of technique. Maybe it's a block, maybe it's a grab, maybe it's a throw, a trip, a deflection, hell, maybe it's all of them. Kata can be shocking versitile once you begin to realize that everything you do in kata is just a motion, and you're free to play with the motions all you want. A single technique can have literally dozens of different meanings and applications in a fight, with only a bare minimum of change done to the move itself. That, my friend, is why we practice kata.
    Captain's Log: Just a little update for all my TRUE and HONEST friends out there:

    1) I am STRAIGHT! I am STRAIGHT! Get it through your thick skulls, numbskulls!

    2) My name is not Ian Brandon Something.

    3) Kacey is coming with me now. I have stolen her from the other Christian Weston Chandler.

    REMINDER: I am still the one and only true creator of sonichu and rosechu electric hedgehog pokemon
  4. Nihilanthic is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/11/2002 10:06pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Why not teach techniques with a clear understanding of what it is, what its use is, and how to use it, and when to use it? Why look into a set of sequential movements and try to use inductive reasoning to explain them? It seems that you take kata and then change how you perceive them, instead of changing kata to suit your needs. Why have "maybes" when you can just say "If you do this when he does that, you get this result"? It doesn't make sense.

    <Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
    <John> I'd have to smack you sometime...
    Katana, on 540 kicks: "Hang from a ceiling fan with both hands. Flail your feet out and ask people to walk into you as you hit their face."
  5. Boyd is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/11/2002 11:45pm

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     Style: Electricity, Speed

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Why not teach techniques with a clear understanding of what it is, what its use is, and how to use it, and when to use it?
    That's what we have teachers for. You learn katas so you know what the motion is for a particular technique, so that if you wish to practice it and don't have someone else onhand, you don't have to wing it.

    Why look into a set of sequential movements and try to use inductive reasoning to explain them?
    You're reading waaaay too much into this whole "sequential movement" thing. Katas organize techniques the same way the alphabet organizes letters. Just because we have a set alphabet doesn't mean we have to use the letters in the same order in the same way every time. My teacher is fond of saying that kata isn't a story, but an encyclopedia. Don't think of kata as "Okay, I'm stepping here and blocking this way, and now I just totally leveled a guy with these two punches, and now I'm turning to face another attacker...". Think of it as just a place where techniques are held for reference.

    It seems that you take kata and then change how you perceive them, instead of changing kata to suit your needs
    Huh? Didn't I just say in my last post that because of how open to interpretation kata is, you can turn a single movement into a wide variety of techniques? I don't see how that's not "suting my needs".

    Why have "maybes" when you can just say "If you do this when he does that, you get this result"?
    Again, it's all what you want it to be. I can't count the number of times I've found a move in kata where the application I was given completely and fully sucked, but then I fell in love with another one. As a result, when I perform that move, I'm thinking of that application. The only "maybes" exist in training, when you're still experimenting. In combat, obviously, you're expected to have something in mind.
    Captain's Log: Just a little update for all my TRUE and HONEST friends out there:

    1) I am STRAIGHT! I am STRAIGHT! Get it through your thick skulls, numbskulls!

    2) My name is not Ian Brandon Something.

    3) Kacey is coming with me now. I have stolen her from the other Christian Weston Chandler.

    REMINDER: I am still the one and only true creator of sonichu and rosechu electric hedgehog pokemon
  6. Nihilanthic is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/12/2002 1:34am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If its just an "encyclopedia" of moves, why bother with doing them in the first place to demonstrate techniques? Drill your techniques to get them clean, then start learning application and how to counter them. At the same time you'd also learn how to string combos. I don't see why you'd have to do a bunch of moves from a dance to learn them, if you need to drill them on bags and mitts anyway; and as I've said before hitting air with one move after another doesn't teach fighting. What I really want to know is, what can kata teach that drills, mitt/bag work, and sparring can not?

    It seems kata has a lot more to do with tradition than any particular need.

    There are plenty of people that have never done kata, but have instead drilled techniques on mitts, heavy bags, then moved on to sparring (under supervision of course), and been told by their teacher about what to do, when, this is open to that, among other things, that are excellent fighters now. I don't see the use of them to demonstrate technique, or using them to find some nebulous use for a movement that isn't immediately clear.

    <Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
    <John> I'd have to smack you sometime...
    Katana, on 540 kicks: "Hang from a ceiling fan with both hands. Flail your feet out and ask people to walk into you as you hit their face."
  7. Amir is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/12/2002 1:36pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Its NIHILANTHIC, please spell it right. I'm not a nihilist... Nihilanth was the end-boss in Half-Life, so yeah, I'm a geek. And don't get me started on anime either"

    Sorry, my mistake

    Since you are referring only to single person Kata, I am afraid I am going to quit this discussion. I have little experience in it. In my primary method I have only learned 2 person Kata's (mostly weapons Kata but one includes empty hand as well). I do practice a single person Kata in TKD (they call it Pumse but it is the same thing) but I still feel like a beginner there - can't explain all the why's.

    However, as I wrote before, 2 person Kata are quite similar to any technique drill actually, any preordained exercise is a Kata. Thus I would recommend you refer only to "single person Kata" and not to Kata in general.


    Amir
  8. Nihilanthic is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/12/2002 11:34pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    by two person kata I hope you don't mean a choreographed fight - thats just ridiculous.

    If you mean specific drills at a realistic pace, not just slow-speed counters to a punch that is more like an extended arm that is thrown to miss, then I suppose they could be good. My issue is with people performing movements that are in some traditional pattern and then trying to figure out what they mean. Drilling technique so its done properly before using it in a fight (or sparring) is important, of course.

    <Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
    <John> I'd have to smack you sometime...
    Katana, on 540 kicks: "Hang from a ceiling fan with both hands. Flail your feet out and ask people to walk into you as you hit their face."
  9. Boyd is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/13/2002 6:31am

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     Style: Electricity, Speed

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What I really want to know is, what can kata teach that drills, mitt/bag work, and sparring can not?

    You're asking the wrong question. It's like asking "What can takedowns teach that drills, bag work, and sparring can not?" While kata can function as an exercise, I see it as nothing more than a bunch of techniques strung together. As such, you'd use bags, sparring, and drills to work your kata. They're not even in the same category.

    It seems kata has a lot more to do with tradition than any particular need.

    But don't you see? If you got rid of kata, you'd be removing literally hundreds of techniques. That's what I'd call a pretty damn big "need".

    I don't see the use of them to demonstrate technique, or using them to find some nebulous use for a movement that isn't immediately clear.

    Imagine two people grappling. Now imagine one of the fighters is invisible, so you see only one guy wrestling with the air. Unless you had a background in grappling, you'd have absolutely no clue what was going on. Does that mean the technique is bad? Of course not. Is having a single movement applicable for numerous situations bad? Hell no.

    And please, don't start that "but a heavy bag/sparring/drills are SOOOOO much better!" silliness. For people like me, who lack the training necessary to mold willing partners out of enchanted clay, a training partner is much like a shooting star; beautiful, but fleeting. We train however we can.

    My issue is with people performing movements that are in some traditional pattern and then trying to figure out what they mean.

    Jesus man, did it ever occur to you that people don't just start katas not knowing what they do? Then again, you ACTUALLY THOUGHT KATAS WERE MADE FOR AESTHETICS STILL REELING FROM THAT ONE.

    I think you're still confused on the idea of kata. The moves are not vauge. They're merely open to interpretation. That is the key. They are not vauge. They are just open to interpretation.

    Let's take the famous Karate middle block, a move I think a lot of people are familiar with. Most people see it and just think of it as a block, which it very well can be. But without changing the movement, it can be a hand release, a backfist, a takedown, and numerous other things I'm too tired to list. Point is, it's not like we sit around throwing middle blocks going "I wonder what the hell THIS thing does?", but we do think of making techniques less rigid and more malleable, so we can better adapt to the changing circumstances of a fight. When you've got one motion with a thousand purposes, you can focus on more important things, like avoiding being kicked in the balls.
    Captain's Log: Just a little update for all my TRUE and HONEST friends out there:

    1) I am STRAIGHT! I am STRAIGHT! Get it through your thick skulls, numbskulls!

    2) My name is not Ian Brandon Something.

    3) Kacey is coming with me now. I have stolen her from the other Christian Weston Chandler.

    REMINDER: I am still the one and only true creator of sonichu and rosechu electric hedgehog pokemon
  10. PeedeeShaolin is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/13/2002 6:41am

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     Style: BJJ, Karate,

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not to be blunt boyd, but I know you want Kata to be important but it will never be. Its just not a good way to practice when other ways are availible. Kata is a compilation of defensive movements such as blocks, and strikes. There is just NO WAY POSSIBLE to practice this by yourself. Bags, mitts, etc are ACTUAL OBJECTS. Anything you do on the air you can do on a bag execpt you will have a REAL target to hi. You can move around it and you will have to be concerned about DISTANCE. You can ACTUALLY HIT SOMETHING with your strikes. I've won competitions in Kata and I still say its just not a realistic or beneficial way to study. Not when you have almost ANY other training methods availible. The only way I would reccomend someone focusing on Kata and taking it seriously is if:

    A- They are in no physical condition to perform other drills.

    B- They are doing it for competition and enjoyment.

    C- They are on a deserted island with no other alternative.

    "The only "ancient" art that's worth a damn is Wrestling.
    Pretty much everything else that is called "ancient" is just masturbation without touching your genitals." -Phrost
    "All warfare is based on deception." -Sun Tzu, ca. 400BC


    Reverse punch Kiaii!!!
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