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  1. Sgt. Puntang is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/10/2002 7:19pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One should resist the temptation to criticize the usefulness of forms just because it is convention and tradition. Forms are a method of training in martial arts that is as old as the stars and is still around today because it must be useful to some degree. People thought they knew better than their elders in the 60's and 70's and now we have an entire generation of children who are undisciplined and from broken households. People threw out sexual modesty for a pleasure spree and now we have an AIDS epidemic running throughout the world. Convention and tradition are here for a reason, and throwing it out just because you don't like it usually ends in folly. While it is important to experiment and question things, it is also important to realize why it is convention in the first place: because it works.

    If a martial arts practicioner can do his katas while truly visualizing an attack in the form of a punch or kick, rather than just blindly following as list of moves in his head, katas become a great way to get your body and mind moving together and actually reacting to a scenario. An instructor can even line people up appropriately so as to actually attack from a given direction to give the student an even better understanding of "what is actually going on". Done this way, katas do become useful, and those who would discard their utility just because they don't understand it is like a child who throws his toys on the ground when he can't figure out how they work.
  2. Nihilanthic is offline

    Decafinated white belt.

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    Posted On:
    11/10/2002 8:11pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Visualizing imaginary opponents while doing kata is fightsturbating.

    Get some gloves & assorted padding and go spar with a real opponent. How about trying some "combo" kata? There isn't much to "figure out"; predetermined fights are in movies and the WWE. A big problem a lot of "kata" guys deal with in real sparring is that they tend to force their way, and end up getting countered by someone who fights. Katas don't teach you to use jabby techniques and look for openings instead of going into a sequence of techniques. You need to actually go at it, you can't rely on a dance.

    <Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
    <John> I'd have to smack you sometime...
    Katana, on 540 kicks: "Hang from a ceiling fan with both hands. Flail your feet out and ask people to walk into you as you hit their face."
  3. Nihilanthic is offline

    Decafinated white belt.

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    Posted On:
    11/10/2002 8:14pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    And as far as reactionary technique goes - if you're learning counters, throws, and locks from pre-determined techniques, you need to practice that with a person who throws attacks that you aren't expecting - Aikido guys who know whats being thrown at them are EXCELLENT at doing whatever, but I'm sure lots of them who haven't trained as I've said make a mistake.

    <Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
    <John> I'd have to smack you sometime...
    Katana, on 540 kicks: "Hang from a ceiling fan with both hands. Flail your feet out and ask people to walk into you as you hit their face."
  4. Karate Fighter is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/11/2002 12:02am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kata has its place in fighting. A lot of times, by seeing the way a person does his kata, shadowboxing, warming up etc....you can tell already what level the person is at and whether you can beat him or not. You can also tell a lot about what a person is about by watching his moves.
  5. Sgt. Puntang is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/11/2002 12:40am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Actually, katas don't teach you how to go through sequences and set movements when you fight. Katas train your mind through repetition to react without thinking. Nobody will ever do a 5 movement sequence straight out of a kata. They may turn and see someone coming at them from the corner of their eye, react, and a few seconds later, as they stand over an opponent who received a ridge-hand strike to the groin, realize that what they just did was one bit or piece of something they had done many times in a kata.

    Besides, who ever said that it was an either/or thing? People ought to do both. Sparring to train for real fighting and reaction time, and katas to improve strength, technique, and balance.
  6. Nihilanthic is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/11/2002 12:46am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    strength, technique, and balance is practiced in sparring and by drilling good technique. And I don't know where you got the idea that following a set of pre-arranged movements somehow magically makes a person have the PERFECT counter to a technique thrown at them. Thats bull. You have to be taught what the counter is, and practice fighting, AND how to apply it in a fight (by noticing the incoming attack) Just doing whatever the kata is (step, punch, this stance, kick, knifehand, spin, curtsey, side kick...) does NOT give you any idea at all of what to do. Its just doing one thing after another in a pre-arranged set. It is what it is, dance moves. HOW can just doing something without any feedback from an opponent possibly give you any idea of how to counter ANYTHING or DO anything to a PERSON except doing one technique in a kata and then doing the technique that came AFTER that one in the kata.

    You're just making stuff up.

    <Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
    <John> I'd have to smack you sometime...
    Katana, on 540 kicks: "Hang from a ceiling fan with both hands. Flail your feet out and ask people to walk into you as you hit their face."
  7. Boyd is offline
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    OFFICIAL Mayor of Cwcville

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    Posted On:
    11/11/2002 3:03am

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     Style: Electricity, Speed

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    HOW can just doing something without any feedback from an opponent possibly give you any idea of how to counter ANYTHING or DO anything to a PERSON except doing one technique in a kata and then doing the technique that came AFTER that one in the kata.

    Waitwaitwait, so are you saying that if you take techniques out of kata, you're not allowed to practice them on people? And that if I do a move out of kata, my brain will be hardwired to do nothing but teh rest of the kata? OF COURSE. I CAN'T BELIEVE I NEVER REALIZED IT UNTIL NOW. I HAVE BEEN LIVING A LIE.

    Jesus people, is it really that hard to understand that kata is just a bunch of moves strung together? Is it really that fucking complicated? Don't bring more into this than there already is. No one has ever said that you have to do an entire kata on a guy, no one's ever said that you can't practice individual moves you really like, no one ever said you can't practice them on other people, nothing. And the funny hand gestures? Absolutely no different from throwing a punch in the air. Yeah, it's always better to practice on a person or a bag, but what if you don't have either? Then you punch at the air. Same principle. You don't have a guy to throw onhand, so you just do the motions.
    Captain's Log: Just a little update for all my TRUE and HONEST friends out there:

    1) I am STRAIGHT! I am STRAIGHT! Get it through your thick skulls, numbskulls!

    2) My name is not Ian Brandon Something.

    3) Kacey is coming with me now. I have stolen her from the other Christian Weston Chandler.

    REMINDER: I am still the one and only true creator of sonichu and rosechu electric hedgehog pokemon
  8. Boyd is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/11/2002 3:05am

    supporting member
     Style: Electricity, Speed

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oh, and about the ever-unpopular ridge-hand strikes...I can personally attest from sparring with non-Karate practioners that there are indeed times when a ridge-hand strikes hurt the most. So let's cool our jets on that topic.
    Captain's Log: Just a little update for all my TRUE and HONEST friends out there:

    1) I am STRAIGHT! I am STRAIGHT! Get it through your thick skulls, numbskulls!

    2) My name is not Ian Brandon Something.

    3) Kacey is coming with me now. I have stolen her from the other Christian Weston Chandler.

    REMINDER: I am still the one and only true creator of sonichu and rosechu electric hedgehog pokemon
  9. Mercurius is offline
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    Wandering Daoist

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    Posted On:
    11/11/2002 5:17am

    supporting member
     Style: Karate, Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kata is just one christmas tree light in a circuit of several.

    If you throw a guy with no training in the ring with a sparring partner, which is supposed to be the "best" way to learn(right?), and tell him, "Okay, now give him the left-right-roundhouse!" against a fully resisting, uncooperative sparring partner, he's not gonna learn **** except how to get his ass beat by the time a real fight comes around.

    Conversely, if you do the same to a guy who ONLY practices kata, you will get the same result- one freshly beaten ass.

    Here's how I see it:
    With kata and basic drills, you improve from knowing nothing to knowing how it's supposed to look and feel without any resistance.

    With yakusoku kumite('one-step sparring') and light sparring,you improve from skill at no resistance to skill against a semi-cooperative or uncooperative opponent. (I'm reminded of a Shaolin teacher who had students spar with pulled punches and stopped them occasionally to do things like point out their mistakes or show them how certain openings could be used, a benefit curiously absent from the full force no rules NHB sparring that people here seem to have a hard-on for.)

    With bag work, you learn how to do it full force against a non-human object.

    With full-contact sparring, you learn to do it full force against an uncooperative opponent looking to do the same to you.

    All the different kinds of training form a chain, neglect any and you have a weaker fighter in the end.

    I should note, however, that those with different needs are going to have different uses for kata. For self-defense, kata with bunkai are a good first step in learning various defenses and how to fight multiples (i.e., block-attack-attack, turn-block-attack). Kata might prove slightly less useful for a ring fighter, but there is still the benefit of learning combinations, fighting principles, and other things like basic defenses (against punches, kicks, grabs, etc.) with counters.

    Of course, I'm not trying to say kata can teach everything because it can't. You can't learn space control when you have an infinite amount of space, you can't learn targeting when there isn't a target.

    To be good, practice the right thing with the right dedication at the right level of proficiency. When you're starting out, a lot of kata and yakusoku kumite. Move up to more yakusoku kumite with bag work and light sparring, then spend more time on full sparring and less on the other stuff(kata, yakusoku kumite) when you have a solid foundation in it.

    --------------------
    And that's what I call REAL Ultimate Power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Edited by - Mercurius on November 11 2002 04:55:52
    "The morning glory blooms for an hour. It differs not at heart from the giant pine, which lives for a thousand years."
  10. SamHarber is offline

    Taking a break

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    Posted On:
    11/11/2002 12:20pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Mercurius has got it right there... I was going to launch into a rant about various things, but it boils down to the following.
    Learn what your doing, why your doing it and how you use it.
    If your training method allows you to do that, then thats all that matters.

    "Not in the face!"
    Taking responsibility for my actions since 1989
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