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  1. Karate Fighter is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/28/2002 8:32pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Good post Amir. But the first guy who was boasting was just that, talking out of his butt. He couldn't have been really good. Even the best take their share of shots but they aways win in the long run. Thats why they are the best. I agree kata helps some more than others.
  2. Nihilanthic is offline

    Decafinated white belt.

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    Posted On:
    10/28/2002 8:52pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Doing kata makes you good at doing kata. Fighting makes you good at fighting. Kicking makes you good at kicking. While a kata can help you with setting a "foundation" for throwing a techinque properly, you need to know how to apply it in a dynamic environment, and how to pick which one to use. You have to move around, keep your opponent in mind, deal with HIS technique, and try to throw in your own. With a Kata all you do is follow set motions. That student who switched from one kata to another didn't do anything a kata would teach him. You don't learn to react in a kata - you learn to follow sequential movements.

    <Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
    <John> I'd have to smack you sometime...
    Katana, on 540 kicks: "Hang from a ceiling fan with both hands. Flail your feet out and ask people to walk into you as you hit their face."
  3. Mercurius is offline
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    Wandering Daoist

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    Posted On:
    10/28/2002 9:35pm

    supporting member
     Style: Karate, Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    An interesting anecdote about kata and fighting...

    I can remember one time sensei had us doing this form, and after the third repetition, he started speeding up the cadence until we could hardly keep up. Ich, ni, san, everyone who kept pace finished the form in half the normal time, and the rest of us were looking at him like he was crazy.

    He said, "You have to learn how to apply these movements at fighting speed or else kata is useless."

    I figure, kata is just one part of the big picture, the first step on being able to apply a technique.

    First, the kata shows you how it's supposed to look ideally. Then, you practice with a cooperative partner, and you get better. Then, you practice with an uncooperative partner, and you get better. Then, sparring and the ring (by which time you hopefully have it down).

    My sensei's admitted that there are some movements in the kata without application, but that doesn't mean that a kata with 2 or 3 unworkable techniques in it should be entirely scrapped, taking along with it the maneuver to punch to the back of the head or the old "knee to the face" shot defense.

    --------------------
    And that's what I call REAL Ultimate Power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    "The morning glory blooms for an hour. It differs not at heart from the giant pine, which lives for a thousand years."
  4. Freddy is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/29/2002 12:15pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Be Happy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There are few useful kata. Judo has some practical katas though but you wont learn them till later. If katas were in the forms of drills then it would be more practicle. You find some useful drills in arts like escrima etc.

    PEACE!
    Ghost of Charles Dickens
  5. Balloonknot is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/29/2002 12:37pm


     Style: lame

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    From what I've seen in my school, it makes the students "think" they can fight. I believe that's the real problem with practising too much kata. They think if they can do a kata really well then they must be good, but I know either way I could still kick their asses!!



    Heavyweight Bone Crushing Muther Fucka!

    Edited by - balloonknot on October 29 2002 11:40:18
  6. KC Elbows

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    Posted On:
    10/29/2002 1:00pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Funny, I've yet to attend a traditional school with sparring who didn't break parts of their forms into drills.

    And, though I've seen forms with movements that were not meant for fighting, I have yet to see a form from a fighting school that had forms with more than one or two such movements.

    I do agree that one could do too much form, or, more appropriately, not enough fighting.
  7. SamHarber is offline

    Taking a break

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    Posted On:
    10/31/2002 6:51pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Reasons to do Kata or Forms: It makes you think through the mechanics of what your doing, where you're stepping, where your weight should be, etc. It also forces you to do the action slowly, so it becomes more precise and builds up the muscles better than fast repetitions. It helps co-ordinate your movement and breathing, resulting in greater power to your movement whether you believe in Chi or not. It allows your instructor to see what your doing wrong and how it should be corrected. There are probably many other reasons that I can't think of at the moment.
    Reasons not to do Kata or Forms: It takes a long time to remember the sequence and do it correctly. It uses up class time that could otherwise be used in sparring/applications of technique.
    I have a feeling that a lot of the people who dismiss forms and katas are also of the opinion that excercises like "push hands" are worthless.
    I have to admit, I hate doing forms. I have a crap memory, and very poor control over my body, despite doing MAs for 10 years. However, seeing the benefits means I'm going to carry on doing them.


    "Not in the face!"
    Taking responsibility for my actions since 1989
  8. Karate Fighter is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/31/2002 7:23pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    kata and shadowboxing-great to do when by yourself, good for warming up and flexibility, gets rid of the rust in whatever technique you need work on
  9. Me_Roy is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/31/2002 7:49pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A contributer earlier in this thread likened kata to the table of contents of a book. Since begining Wing Chun training, I've been under the imporession that the forms read like a theoretical text.

    Which necessitates this disclaimer: I don't advocate "theory martial arts," my instructor doesn't, and I don't think anyone in his lineage does or did.

    The first Wing Chun form tells me some things about fighting. I have deduced some layers of its meaning, my instructor has told me others and I'm certain that there are other aspects I won't learn for a long time.

    These theoretical lessons reveal the principles of the art. The first form informs me of the basics of center line theory: where it is, how to attack it, how to protect it, how to apply energy along and against it.

    Noone in Wing Chun thinks a fighter can live by forms alone. But I'd hedge a bet that most of the good ones look to the forms to learn the principles of the art, to find the basic techniques of the system and to hone those techniques in a productive environment, if one not represetational of a real fight.

    best,

    dan
  10. poorboy is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/10/2002 12:30pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i think of kata as 100 year old tae bo.
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