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  1. #21
    Northeast Anti-Silliness Department Inc. supporting member
    Ke?poFist's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by artard
    "If you break down any of the arts which will actually work in a fight," is the first thing he says. Would you use a jumping spinning hook kick in a fight? If the answer is yes you probably suck at fighting.
    This is incorrect
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee


  2. #22

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jdinca
    It seemed pretty clear cut to me. If you didn't learn the technique as a beginner because it was too advanced for you, it's a bullshit technique. Everything you do as a fighter should be what you were taught as a beginner, only at a higher level of expertise because of the quality and length of time you've been training.
    Iunno, are spider guard, x guard, gogoplatas and bicep sliders bullshit techniques just because a lot of coaches wont' teach them to their white belts?

    What about heel hooks and other techniques that are very easy to injure your partners with if you don't have a certain level of skill?

  3. #23

  4. #24
    Just waiting for the paperboy. supporting member
    Lebell's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Logicattax
    ehr?!

    you one of those weirdos with a fixation for matt thornton?

    hai! i haz surprise: everybody loox stoopit in slomow!

    happy larpin!

  5. #25

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical
    Iunno, are spider guard, x guard, gogoplatas and bicep sliders bullshit techniques just because a lot of coaches wont' teach them to their white belts?

    What about heel hooks and other techniques that are very easy to injure your partners with if you don't have a certain level of skill?
    Well exactly. In Judo beginners only do easy throws and pins. You don't see whitebelts doing uchi matas on each other and chokes and subs come in above orange belt level. All to stop the kiddies crippling or killing each other (they have to wait until they get their green belt for that).

  6. #26
    jdinca's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    What constitutes a beginner?
    That's why everyone sees it different.

    I've seen many an argument as to when to learn what. Yes, this come from BJJers concerning leglocks, heel hooks on and on.

    I'd argue these aren't bullshit techniques.
    His statement was "the first part of your training". Take that for what it's worth.

    My opinion is this: Fundamentals ARE taught at the beginning of your training. No matter what you learn in addition to that, the fundamentals are the key to success. You may learn techniques that are advanced forms of those fundamentals, i.e., heel hook to spinning heel hook, to jump spinning heel hook, to flying spinning heel hook but if the basic heel hook is no good, none of the others will be either. Now build on to that. If your spinning heel hook is no good, then whatever spinning heel hook you try in the air will be no good. It's a progression that can't all be taught to the "beginner" student.

    In addition, there may be techniques that will not be successful when taught to a beginner, if they don't understand HOW the fundamentals work and that the additional techniques are based in some way on the fundamentals.

    What I get from Thornton is that anything taught other than the fundamentals in the first part of your training is bullshit and you're being lied to. I wholeheartedly disagree with that premise with the caveat that it all depends on what the underlying purpose of having beginning, intermediate and advanced techniques is.

  7. #27
    jdinca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldk
    or perhaps a bullshit training methodology?
    It all depends on what the underlying purpose of designating a technique "advanced" is. In many instances, it is a bullshit training methodology but if you look at the analogy I just posted in reply to IIF, you'll see where I'm coming from. You learn the basics and then build on the basics, while never stopping your training on the basics. If your basics are not good enough to build upon, then why do it? Wait until the student is better at the fundamentals and then build upon them. Wouldn't that be considered as being more advanced techniques?

  8. #28

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lebell
    Oldman34 has this real helpfull thread called 'my theory of managebility, its quite good, maybe you should read it, its located in ymas, searchfunction.
    Yeah, I've already posted in it. Not quite the same topic though, and surprisingly I've actually been thinking about posting this thread for probably a week now.

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