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  1. Domite is offline
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    blotter art.

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    Posted On:
    7/19/2008 12:18am


     Style: San Shou

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by artard
    "If you break down any of the arts which will actually work in a fight," is the first thing he says. Would you use a jumping spinning hook kick in a fight? If the answer is yes you probably suck at fighting.

    Or you are nice at jumping spinning back kicks.
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/19/2008 12:26am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jdinca
    If you didn't learn the technique as a beginner because it was too advanced for you, it's a bullshit technique.
    What constitutes a beginner?
    That's why everyone sees it different.

    I've seen many an argument as to when to learn what. Yes, this come from BJJers concerning leglocks, heel hooks on and on.

    I'd argue these aren't bullshit techniques.
  3. TheMightyMcClaw is offline
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    MADE OF STEEL!

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    Posted On:
    7/19/2008 12:40am

    supporting member
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One thing I've noticed about "advanced" techniques, and why I consider the concept a fallacy, is that techniques which are "advanced" in one system will be "basic" in another.
    For example, the sort of standing wrist and shoulder locks which constitute the "basics" of aikido would be considered very advanced techniques in many karate schools. The leg locks which we consider "advanced" techniques in Brazilian Jiujitsu (heel hook, toe hold, calf crush, etc.) as I understand it, are fairly "basic" techniques in Sambo and Shootfighting. Conversely, the exhaustive guard work which are "basic" in BJJ seem to be considered "advanced" techniques in Judo.
    Some movements, such as the aforementioned jump spinning hook kick, may be more difficult to execute, but I don't feel like this makes them fundamentally advanced. The tornado kick and jump spin crecent kick, for example, though very difficult to execute, are "basic" movements in wushu.

    Thus, I'm very skeptical of the notion that any technique might be fundamentallly "advanced" or "basic."
  4. Tangent is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/19/2008 12:46am


     Style: Tae Kwon Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    What constitutes a beginner?
    That's why everyone sees it different.

    I've seen many an argument as to when to learn what. Yes, this come from BJJers concerning leglocks, heel hooks on and on.

    I'd argue these aren't bullshit techniques.
    And that's my point as well. He doesn't actually say in the video that a technique that someone claims is an "advanced" technique is bullshit. He says that advanced techniques don't exist. I don't know the exact context in which he's defining "advanced", and I think that's the confusion. To me, an advanced technique is one that requires you to be a certain skill level before even learning it, ore requires knowledge and ability of another technique to learn this more advanced technique.
  5. lionknight is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/19/2008 1:11am


     Style: Much striking, SAMBO, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The technique though is not "more advanced" it is simply something you have to learn in order, that is the difference.

    Advance technique is used to confuse people thinking they have to train for years and years to learn something, when in actuality you just need proper instruction.

    For example:

    Advance technique way: You must train for 10 years before you have the skill necessary to do a jump spin hook kick.

    Proper instruction: Here is how you do a hook kick; here is how you jump; here is how you combine them together.

    The first way leads someone on in a dishonest way setting goals that are not necessary to learning what is being taught.

    The second way teaches you the steps needed to accomplish the goal, in any time frame you own skills allow you to accomplish it. Be it 2 months or 10 years ;-)

    No advanced technique, just proper teaching.
    Last edited by lionknight; 7/19/2008 1:15am at .
  6. ronaldk is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/19/2008 7:35am


     Style: BJJ / freestyle wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jdinca
    It seemed pretty clear cut to me. If you didn't learn the technique as a beginner because it was too advanced for you, it's a bullshit technique.
    or perhaps a bullshit training methodology?
  7. CrackFox is online now
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    You have to work the look.

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    Posted On:
    7/19/2008 7:54am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ok, I'm probably just repeating someone else's post, but I think he's saying that your school shouldn't operate like some kind of mystery religion. So if you have to learn some crap "basic" moves before you get to see the "killer" moves, then your school sucks.

    You should be getting the basics down, then learning to mix it up. You might learn new techniques, but they're just icing - your basics should be what win your fights for you.
  8. Lebell is offline
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    Just waiting for the paperboy.

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    Posted On:
    7/19/2008 9:06am

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    my 2 cents: no beginner or advanced techniques, only beginner or advanced practisioners.

    'advanced' techniques such as what was mentionned the flying spinning hook kick is difficult and in most scenarios be it match/spar/real life highly unlikely to work.

    a flying spinning hook kick could be considered an advanced technique since its more difficult to learn, yet in my opinion it would not fit in any aliveness training because its just not that. practical.

    i'd give it a 10% or even lower rate it would succeed in an alive situation.

    so in short: no advanced or beginner techniques, just advanced or beginner people, from the skilllevel that the people have flows the regard of easy or difficult techniques.

    Oldman34 has this real helpfull thread called 'my theory of managebility, its quite good, maybe you should read it, its located in ymas, searchfunction.
  9. The Badger is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/19/2008 10:22am


     Style: inactive

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think his perspective and context is coming from his own teachings/style ("SBG"). He's talking about "advanced" techniques as they are perceived in many other styles, probably mostly the common styles like TKD and Karate where he perceives them dead pattern orientated styles etc etc.

    I think he's right. In the ideal style of martial art there is no "advanced" techniques - like none of this "you can't learn that move until you are a black belt!" crap. This is for two reasons:

    a) Alive training is results orientated. Being good at "basic" moves, on average, is better than knowing lower % "advanced" ones.

    b) The reasons that many schools hold techniques back is not in the student's interest. It's often a BS about reinforcing a false hierarchy based on skills demonstrated in non-alive settings or limited-alive settings than skills demonstrated in alive ones.

    Coming back at it from that angle, the whole grading structure in many, **** most even, martial arts, relies on BS division of techniques into "beginner", "intermediate" and "advanced" to reinforce a false hierarchy. We've probably all seen a Karate green belt who was naturally good at sparring within the karate club rules and could chase the senior guys all over the mats. Yeah, and that's often rationalized as the crappy brown belt he just whopped knows advanced techniques he was holding back; I've seen him do a spinning jumping hammersfist and wrist lock combo from Kunte Kata that is too dangerous for sparring blah. I'm waffling I'll shut up now.

    Oh, and this makes me an obnoxious **** but I just wrote all that without bothering to watch the video.
  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/19/2008 10:27am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Badger
    Oh, and this makes me an obnoxious **** but I just wrote all that without bothering to watch the video.
    Or reading the thread.


    Coming back at it from that angle, the whole grading structure in many, **** most even, martial arts, relies on BS division of techniques into "beginner", "intermediate" and "advanced" to reinforce a false hierarchy. We've probably all seen a Karate green belt who was naturally good at sparring within the karate club rules and could chase the senior guys all over the mats. Yeah, and that's often rationalized as the crappy brown belt he just whopped knows advanced techniques he was holding back; I've seen him do a spinning jumping hammersfist and wrist lock combo from Kunte Kata that is too dangerous for sparring blah. I'm waffling I'll shut up now.
    That is exactly what many of us are saying. So, you nailed the video.
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