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  1. Tangent is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2008 10:19pm


     Style: Tae Kwon Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Specific Question on Matt Thornton's Point Concerning "Advanced Techniques"

    I was watching the Matt Thornton videos on YouTube again the other day, and I've been thinking a lot about his point concerning advanced techniques. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, watch the video.

    YouTube - Matt Thornton - Functional martial arts

    So, I'm confused. For instance, a jumping spinning hook kick is more advanced than a spinning hook kick. One should learn how to execute a spinning hook kick before attempting to learn the jumping version.

    My confusion lies in that I'm not sure what he's trying to say.

    Is he trying to say that there are no functional advanced techniques? As in, a jumping spinning hook kick is so low percentage as to be considered non-functional, so though its an advanced technique, it doesn't count or is exempt from being included in his point?

    Or is he saying that the way that advanced techniques are taught as part of a curriculum in which one must be X belt level to learn the standing version, and then Y belt level to learn the jumping version is the part that is BS?

    Or does he mean that every technique has enough nuances to make it different from every other technique, such that the jumping spinning hook kick is not actually an advanced version of the standing spinning hook kick? And, because of this, one could just as easily be taught the jumping version before the standing version, with no impediments? (Also, this possibility means that I'm wrong - that there really are no such things as advanced techniques)

    Or is there something else that I'm missing?
  2. Holy Moment is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2008 10:45pm

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     Style: Wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Or is there something else that I'm missing?

    That more complicated techniques should be used to supplement your arsenal rather than supplant it, among other things.

    I think what he's trying to say is that developing a technique is just as important as learning it, but many mcdojo students and instructors don't perceive it that way. They think that learning about a new jumping-flipping-scissor-kick-to-the-nuts will make them a better fighter; they think that learning the technique is all that matters, and don't take into consideration that developing the power and precision of said technique will make them better. Fighting isn't like playing with Pokemon cards; you have to improve your skills, you can't just accumulate new moves.
    Last edited by Holy Moment; 7/18/2008 10:56pm at .
  3. artard is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2008 10:47pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "If you break down any of the arts which will actually work in a fight," is the first thing he says. Would you use a jumping spinning hook kick in a fight? If the answer is yes you probably suck at fighting.
  4. Tangent is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2008 10:56pm


     Style: Tae Kwon Do

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by artard
    "If you break down any of the arts which will actually work in a fight," is the first thing he says. Would you use a jumping spinning hook kick in a fight? If the answer is yes you probably suck at fighting.
    I don't know if that's quite what he means though. After he says that, he lists a bunch of arts, Muay Thai being one of them. Spinning hook kicks are thrown in Muay Thai, so it is conceivable that a jumping version could be thrown as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Moment
    That more complicated techniques should be used to supplement your arsenal rather than supplant it, among other things.

    I think what he's trying to say is that developing a technique is just as important as learning it, but many mcdojo students and instructors don't perceive it that way. They think that learning about a new jumping-flipping-scissor-kick-to-the-nuts will make them a better fighter; they think that learning the technique is all that matters, and don't take into consideration that developing the power and precision of said technique will make them better. Fighting isn't like playing with Pokemon cards; you have to improve your skills, you can't just accumulate new moves.
    That makes sense to me, but he actually specifically says in that video that there are no such things as techniques which could be classified as beginner, intermediate, or advanced. So, while I agree with you, is that really what he's saying?
    Last edited by Tangent; 7/18/2008 10:59pm at .
  5. Holy Moment is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2008 11:10pm

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     Style: Wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That makes sense to me, but he actually specifically says in that video that there are no such things as techniques which could be classified as beginner, intermediate, or advanced. So, while I agree with you, is that really what he's saying?
    I think what he was trying to say is that most of the techniques that you'll actually use in real fights will be learned early on (As in, the beginner stage), and that you shouldn't have to reach a certain belt level to learn the more complicated ("Advanced") moves if you're ready to incorporate them into your gameplan at an earlier time.
    Last edited by Holy Moment; 7/19/2008 10:46am at .
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2008 11:18pm

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     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think this is a video that is kind of out of context.


    I'd have to see the question that set this line of reasoning off. It makes sense when you hear people say that Black Belt is the beginning. Better yet, Black Belt is when you get to the advanced techniques.

    In that context he is right.


    He points out "when you get involved in a system...etc," I think that is a purposeful way of being vague, avoiding naming specific arts.
  7. ronaldk is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2008 11:45pm


     Style: BJJ / freestyle wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    yeah, if i recall correctly (internet slow atm, so cant verify), this is the video where he uses judo as an example, and how olympic players use the same techniques you learn at your gym, the same ones theyve been drilling since they were whitebelts.

    i think he's cracking down on arts that have fame for really separating their students based on rank, as is the case with TKD a lot. my teacher would teach me whatever i wanted to learn, and whatever he felt i was ready for, regardless of rank. but when i was a yellow belt, he kept warning me to please be careful and not say... throw a hook kick in sparring, as if one of the higher instructors in the club (there were two guys above him) saw me they might kick up a fuss.

    i think he's going against the whole, he knows advanced moves, therefore he is an advanced fighter. your 720 butterfly kick can look beautiful and you can still suck in a fight. i personally think some techniques are more complicated than others (RNC vs. a gogoplata), so while i don't agree wholeheartedly, i get where he's coming from.
  8. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2008 11:47pm

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     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldk
    i think he's going against the whole, he knows advanced moves, therefore he is an advanced fighter. your 720 butterfly kick can look beautiful and you can still suck in a fight. i personally think some techniques are more complicated than others (RNC vs. a gogoplata), so while i don't agree wholeheartedly, i get where he's coming from.
    This is why I'd have liked to see what set it off. I agree there are more complicated techniques.
  9. ray jackson is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/19/2008 12:13am


     Style: karate, Ju-jitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i thought he was saying that "advanced techniques" don't actually exist, but rather that advanced fighters know how to set up and utilize basic techniques so well. He is saying, from what i can tell, that really good fighting isn't about complex flashy moves like a jumping spinning back kick, but a really well timed and set up rouund kick. Anyone can learn a jumping spinning back kick believe it or not, that doesn't make you a good martial artist by any means. Being able to execute a round kick to the head, against a good fighter, is much more impressive and a better example of advanced skill.
  10. jdinca is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/19/2008 12:14am


     Style: Chinese Kenpo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It seemed pretty clear cut to me. If you didn't learn the technique as a beginner because it was too advanced for you, it's a bullshit technique. Everything you do as a fighter should be what you were taught as a beginner, only at a higher level of expertise because of the quality and length of time you've been training.
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