1. #1

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Portugal
    Posts
    33
    Style
    Judo
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Is Judo the "current Kitō-ryū official successor"?

    Hello all! A rather specific doubt that was raised when I ended up on the Kito-ryu wikipedia page; one of the references had a wrong URL, something that bothered me so I decided to at leas fix that. The document in question is Kano's "Roppo no kuzushi lesson", which does include the following:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kanō Jigorō
    Soon after this episode the master gave me the diploma of Kito-ryu, the densho and all the hallows belonging to the school. I received in this way the authority of the ryu
    Now, this is all good and proper but does it mean that Judo is the "official successor" of Kito-ryu? Certainly it can be considered at least *one* successor, but (and perhaps I'm overthinking this) to be described in such definitive terms it would require that a) nobody else received equivalent scrolls and b) no extant Kito-ryu jujutsu school exists today hat has a "valid" lineage. Any thoughts?

  2. #2
    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours. Join us... or die
    BKR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    9,084
    Style
    Kodokan Judo
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by RedCelt View Post
    Hello all! A rather specific doubt that was raised when I ended up on the Kito-ryu wikipedia page; one of the references had a wrong URL, something that bothered me so I decided to at leas fix that. The document in question is Kano's "Roppo no kuzushi lesson", which does include the following:Now, this is all good and proper but does it mean that Judo is the "official successor" of Kito-ryu? Certainly it can be considered at least *one* successor, but (and perhaps I'm overthinking this) to be described in such definitive terms it would require that a) nobody else received equivalent scrolls and b) no extant Kito-ryu jujutsu school exists today hat has a "valid" lineage. Any thoughts?
    There were several ryu-ha of Kito Ryu, which is basically dead and gone now. That's my understanding at least.

    So no, Kodokan Judo is not the "successor" or one of the "succesor's" of Kito Ryu Ju Jutsu.

    Let's think for a minute...Kano was how old when he founded the Kodokan ? 21 ? So he got full transmission of Kito Ryu...while going to school..etc etc etc... gotta wonder just how much there was left of Kito Ryu at that time in history. For a hint, look at what's left in Judo...the Koshiki No Kata, aka Kito Ryu No Kata.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

  3. #3

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    166
    Style
    BJJ, Judo
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The current representative of kito ryu according to the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai is Inoue Shoji. The last successor of kito ryu that I can find died in 1966. Judo is not and cannot be the successor, it does not make any sense to say it is. Judo has subsumed part of kito ryu that is all. As far as I am lead to believe Jigoro Kano did not even receive a menkyo kaiden in kito ryu.

  4. #4
    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours. Join us... or die
    BKR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    9,084
    Style
    Kodokan Judo
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by speedycerviche View Post
    The current representative of kito ryu according to the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai is Inoue Shoji. The last successor of kito ryu that I can find died in 1966. Judo is not and cannot be the successor, it does not make any sense to say it is. Judo has subsumed part of kito ryu that is all. As far as I am lead to believe Jigoro Kano did not even receive a menkyo kaiden in kito ryu.
    No, I think he got menkyo kaiden in Kito Ryu, but not in Tenjin shin'yo Ryu. In any case, menkyo does not equal successor of lineage.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    166
    Style
    BJJ, Judo
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    No, I think he got menkyo kaiden in Kito Ryu, but not in Tenjin shin'yo Ryu. In any case, menkyo does not equal successor of lineage.
    Well I just read his certificate and from what I can read it says menkyo and not menkyokaiden and permission to teach not total transmission but I find some of it hard to read. https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%9F...judo_menjo.jpg

    Depends on the school I have heard in some cases menkyokaiden does indeed equal that. I believe that muso jikiden eishin ryu is like that which is why there are some many independent lines of that school.

  6. #6
    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours. Join us... or die
    BKR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    9,084
    Style
    Kodokan Judo
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by speedycerviche View Post
    Well I just read his certificate and from what I can read it says menkyo and not menkyokaiden and permission to teach not total transmission but I find some of it hard to read. https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%9F...judo_menjo.jpg

    Depends on the school I have heard in some cases menkyokaiden does indeed equal that. I believe that muso jikiden eishin ryu is like that which is why there are some many independent lines of that school.

    Whatever the truth is, I think if we consider how young Kano was and how long he had done Kito Ryu, "full transmission" is a bit suspect, as would be true skill level.

    It's kinda moot in the first place, LOL !
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Log in

Log in
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO