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  1. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/12/2008 2:24pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by shmuel
    Well how many guys in the 60s and 70s that claimed to be teaching "jujutsu" or "kenjutsu" were actually genuine?

    I'm not talking about karate or aikido or judo. I'm sure that there were plenty of real teachers back in those days.

    I'm specifically talking about guys claiming "Japanese jujutsu" or "kenjutsu".
    That's why I asked because this
    So my question is this: What were all the "schools" claiming to teach Japanese jujutsu and kenjutsu and other arts really teaching all these years? Was it all mostly made up and fraudulent stuff?
    doesn't nail anything down.


    Whay percentage of those people in the 60s, 70s and 80s were actually teaching the real thing?
    I gave you links research the percentages yourself. There is no way to honestly tell.


    I think that it's only since the 1990s, maybe even the 2000s that most people REALLY know what koryu looked like and started to go to Japan to learn it. Some of those people are now starting to come back to the west, bringing back the real thing.
    There are phonies in everything even today. I gave you two links that show what styles and their Menkyo licensed head instructors. No, those links don't just cover Aikido links.
  2. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/12/2008 2:25pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's amazing to hear!

    Katori Shinto Ryu seems like an amazing style. I hope people are aware of what a rare opportunity they have with this gentleman living in the UK.
    In all honesty, from the conversations I've had with him, he prefers to keep reasonably quiet and to himself. He has little regard for the mired of supposed martial arts "governing bodies" which exist and, only accepts students who are able to travel to Japan at least on a yearly basis to train.

    Although this attitude seems (and is) elitist, I fully understand where he's coming from.

    --Dave
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  3. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/12/2008 2:44pm

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    Phil Relnick / Shinto Muso ryu - awarded by Tsueno Nishioka

    Toby Threadgill / Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu - awarded by Yukiyoshi Takamura

    Pat Hendricks / Iwama ryu Aiki Ken & Aiki Jo - awarded by Morihiro Saito
    Phil's was awarded awarded in 1986. I haven't looked through the entire thread.


    Asayama Ichiden ryu - James Wright

    Danzan ryu - Sig Kufferath / Tony Janovich / Bob Hudson

    Hakko ryu - Brian Workman / Ralph Verde / Steve Glaser / Gordon Kiokawa / Scott Newkirk / Tony Lamonica / Dennis Palumbo

    Iwama ryu - Patricia Hendricks

    Kashima Shin ryu - William Bodiford / Karl Friday

    Negishi ryu - Pierre Simon

    Shinto Muso ryu - Phil Relnick / Pascal Kreiger

    Sosuishi-ryu - Pat Harrington / Betty Huxley

    Taiko Kono ha ryu - Colin Hyakutake-Watkin

    Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu - Toby Threadgill / David Maynard

    Toda ha Buko ryu - Meik Skoss / Pierre Simon, / Claire Simon / Kini Collins, Ellis Amdur / Kent Sorenson, / Liam Keeley

    Shidare Yanagi ryu - Don Angier
    Here is a list from a post in the e-budo thread.

    I have not taken the time to see when they recieved their licenses or when they started teaching.

    SENSEI HAYAWO KIYAMA was teaching way back in the 1960's here in the US. He has a Menkyo Kaiden.

    I know you'll come back with percentages but, you'll have to do that yourself. That would involve finding each dojo that ever existed, how many were open in the west, tracing their lineage, then tracing the illegitimate lineage. Also, many taught before receiving their Menkyo's. Then you have to decide does that make their students illegitimate or not?

    Too many variables IMO.
  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/12/2008 2:48pm

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    koryu looked like and started to go to Japan to learn it.
    Sorry missed this point.
    Many of the military Menkyo holders were deployed in Japan, learning there, and received their Menkyo's from Japanese teachers. So, I disagree with you on this point.
  5. Fitz is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/12/2008 11:42pm


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also the OP seems to have overlooked Donn Draeger's influence. Keep in mind that he was one of the key figures for the folks you mention in the thread-title for their pursuit of Koryu Budo/Bujutsu and was active decades before any of them were.
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/13/2008 8:25am

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    Oops thank you. I knew there was an important name I was leaving out. I don't practice JMA.


    SENSEI HAYAWO KIYAMA (not yelling cut and paste) Is Japanese and has/was (don't know) teaching since the 60's.

    Now, I do think people were scammed into thinking they were doing legit Koryu.

    There are legit teachers out there. To try and say now is when the real "koryu" is surfacing is ludicrous.
  7. lucky_8353 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/08/2008 11:31pm


     Style: Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    Phil's was awarded awarded in 1986. I haven't looked through the entire thread.


    Here is a list from a post in the e-budo thread.

    I have not taken the time to see when they recieved their licenses or when they started teaching.

    SENSEI HAYAWO KIYAMA was teaching way back in the 1960's here in the US. He has a Menkyo Kaiden.

    I know you'll come back with percentages but, you'll have to do that yourself. That would involve finding each dojo that ever existed, how many were open in the west, tracing their lineage, then tracing the illegitimate lineage. Also, many taught before receiving their Menkyo's. Then you have to decide does that make their students illegitimate or not?

    Too many variables IMO.
    Can you please direct me to the source on the net or elsewhere in which you find Kiyama Shihan received a menkyo kaiden? Thank you.

    Yours in Budo,

    Andrew
  8. lucky_8353 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/08/2008 11:41pm


     Style: Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is a interesting subject matter but other than informational purposes, what would answering the "fake or not fake" solve. What is the ultimate purpose of this question?

    Many would argue (especially on this forum), that if the art was effective, that's what matters. In other words, effectiveness makes it legit (not fake).

    In an attempt to direct an answer, I would guess (based on the Japanese Jujutsu I've been exposed to) that many gendai JJJ (that don't have a "legitimate" lineage) were influenced by two arts--JUDO and AIKIDO. You will also get some western boxing influence depending on the geographical region in question, as well.

    Also, for purposes of this discussion, keep in mind Aikido is a gendai art but certainly not illegitimate. Aikido, Danzan JJ, Hakko JJ are effective gendai systems but not koryu.

    Yours in Budo,

    Andrew
    Last edited by lucky_8353; 9/09/2008 8:51am at .
  9. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/09/2008 4:24pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lucky_8353
    Many would argue (especially on this forum), that if the art was effective, that's what matters. In other words, effectiveness makes it legit (not fake).
    If you say your style is koryu, and it's gendai, you're a faking faker with lying pants on fire.

    Effectiveness does not enter the conversation regarding koryu. Lineage and legitimate transmission is what matters.

    http://www.e-budo.com/html/snobb.htm
  10. lucky_8353 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/09/2008 8:17pm


     Style: Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2
    If you say your style is koryu, and it's gendai, you're a faking faker with lying pants on fire.

    Effectiveness does not enter the conversation regarding koryu. Lineage and legitimate transmission is what matters.

    http://www.e-budo.com/html/snobb.htm

    Agreed, in terms of koryu, lineage matters. But being a liar doesn't make an art ineffective. Nevertheless, I would be weary of any instructor that intentionally lies about anything b/c then anything he/she teaches becomes questionable.

    Yours in Budo,

    Andrew
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