Jim Wagner's military, police, counter-terror creds in question.

**Sam Browning** · Posted On: 12/25/2008 4:31pm

No we haven't seen the DD 214 yet.

**Jonathan Randal** · Posted On: 12/25/2008 11:06pm

Originally Posted by Ninja Claus

No we haven't seen the DD 214 yet.

I don't think you are going to...

**kanegs** · Posted On: 12/26/2008 9:49am

Originally Posted by Jeff C.

The Honorable Discharge certificate on his website is not worth the paper it is written on. That does not mean it is not legitimate - it means that practically NOBODY will accept those certificates as proof of an honorable discharge (they are too easy to steal, too easy to duplicate - not a controlled item). Only a DD 214 is accepted. I don't think we have seen his 214 yet.

Jeff Cook

Agreed. I never served but I tried to get a military marker for a deceased relative using one of those certificates and it wasn't accepted because it did not include dates of service.

**Songshan** · Posted On: 12/27/2008 4:37pm

Originally Posted by datdamnmachine

Simple, ask and research. You can ask who they trained under and the time period. You can then find that instructor and ask them, you can also find other students. If things match up, they match up, if they don't, they don't. You really, DON'T just have to take the instructor's word for anything. That's usually for these off the wall martial arts and instructors who learned from some guy on a mountain in Asia somewhere. That's the beauty of many of the combat oriented martial arts. It's usually not too difficult to find out what you are looking for. Because of the amount of work these guys have to put into those systems to be effective, they tend to have no problem weeding out bullshitters who may be using their good name to get over on people.

As for tournament work, that can be a little tricky, but not so much really in this day and age of the Interwebz. If there was a tournament, someone probably knows about it, someone other than the instructor attended, someone had to put it on. A little let work can get you a lot of information. Also, unless the instructor made the medals and trophies himself/herself, then it will say on them what they are for. If you see a lot of medals for musical kata, then you probably know what you are getting yourself into.

Alright, so taking what you said and applying it in Jim Wagner's case, I just find it hard to believe that he would post all of this information about his credentials and it not being true knowing that we live in a tech savy age now. He is throwing his creds out there, people are questioning it, most of the answers seen to be in his website.....when does the merry go round end? I think many questions are being asked because he didn't come from a mainstream martial arts style or does not have any main MA creds to show other than what he himself as learned over the years. The fact that Black Belt mag seems to heavily endorse Jim Wagner raises doubt that Jim Wagner would be lieing about his creds. Who knows (not that I put too much faith into Black Belt Mag anyway).

Originally Posted by Jonathan Randal

I don't think you are going to...

Probably not....I know I wouldn't post personal sensitive information like that on the web. However, as I said before Law Enforcement wouldn't touch him with anything less than a honorable discharge from the military. Even if the state of California missed it, Federal wouldn't. If he lied about that he would be behind bars.

**Jeff C.** · Posted On: 12/27/2008 8:07pm

I don't think anyone here cares one wit whether he comes from a mainstream martial art or not. In fact, it could be argued that a person who ONLY comes from a mainstream martial art does not have what is necessary to teach DT, military combatives, etc.

Good point about LE not touching him without an honorable discharge, unless of course he had an uncharacterized discharge. I don't doubt his discharge certificate. I only said that the wall-hanging certificate he has posted cannot be used for proof of an honorable discharge. But again, I have no reason to think he was not honorably discharged, IF he completed AIT (which by the way is Advanced Individual Training, NOT Advanced Infantry Training as some other poster stated).

Jeff Cook

**Sam Browning** · Posted On: 12/27/2008 8:26pm

The fact that he is a Black Belt Magazine columnist does not establish that he told the truth about his background. Just look at the stuff they published for Frank Dux.

**texasbeto1** · Posted On: 12/29/2008 9:38pm

Ok, I should be the third air marshal to respond to this thread. I was in for almost 5 years. There is no way you can claim a flight as a counter-terrorist mission. As we were told in Phase 2 (wink wink) by the guy from SEAL Team 2, we were not counter terrorist. We were not Anti-terrorist. This SEAL guy went out of his way to tell us that only Delta, DevGroup (seal team 6) or the FBI HRT were counter terrorist. The SEAL guy worked for Bruce Siddle's PPCT and he was one of the guys who showed us the PPCT method of fighiting bad guys. I showed one of our team leaders an article about Wagner in a spanish magazine "Cinturon Negro". This team leader asked around and said that Wagner left because they wanted him to leave and he was "flaky". Something about boarding flights dressed in mechanic clothing and enterring from the tarmac. Take it for what it is worth.
Some of this guys stuff seems ok, but I guess I got confused over other systems like Krav Maga, Kapap, Kajukenbo, Blauer, other guys who have some good stuff. I thought they were reality based? Guess I was confused.
My first post, pardon me for not using the intro board.

**Sam Browning** · Posted On: 12/29/2008 11:59pm

No problem, welcome aboard.

**Ogi San** · Posted On: 12/31/2008 9:26pm

OK, maybe I can shed some helpful light on Mr. Wagner's credentials. To set the stage, I don't know Mr. Wagner, have never attended any of his courses, never bought his books or DVDs, have read only a few of his articles in BB Magazine, don't think I have ever met any of his students, don't have a dog in this fight, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

Actually I spent three decades in California law enforcement and retired as the Assistant Sheriff of a southern California Sheriff's Department. Additionally I served five years on active duty in the Marine Corps, including a tour in RVN and several years in the California Army National Guard with a Long Range Surveillance Unit. I currently live by the Back Gate of Camp Pendleton and train in Aikido.

I looked at his website and looked at the documents he posts there.

He holds an Intermediate POST Certificate. The California Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training (POST) award various levels of certification based on training, education and experience. They run from Basic, to Intermediate, Advanced, Supervisory, Management and Executive. The Basic is awarded after graduation from a POST accredited academy and one year of service. The Intermediate can be awarded as early as two years with a Master's Degree and down as far as (as I recall) six years with no college course work. An officer holding an Intermediate Certificate would generally be considered a "journeyman level" officer. Each California officer is required to have a minimum of 24 hours of training every two years and there is no specific curriculum required. The training to be given is at the discretion of the department and its needs, but must be POST certified training.

Although I don't think it was mentioned, Mr. Wagner must have been a Level One Reserve officer with Orange County SO. A Level One reserve has completed the same training as a full time officer and has full peace officer powers while on duty. Some are qualified as "Designated Level Ones" and have full peace officer powers 24 X 7. I suggest that he was probably a Level One as he did successfully graduate from the Basic Academy while with Costa Mesa PD.

Reserve Officers do have rank in some departments and each treats the issue a little differently. Most take the position that reserve officers have rank ONLY in the reserve unit and are automatically inferior in rank to a full-time officer. Level One officers are allowed legally to work single man cars and details.

Mr. Wagner's other police related certificates are rather run of the mill. For example he has a certificate for transitioning from the revolver to the semi-auto duty weapon. Most officers who were around in the wheel gun days have the same certificate. Nothing extraordinary there.

As for the two events described by the former co-worker at Costa Mesa PD, they sound like really dumb rookie mistakes. Generally if you think you are about be run over by a bad guy, you usually try to shoot him and not his tires. It is always best to fully understand your situation before you shoot anything though. I can understand taking off a car door and I'm sure its happened to others in the heat of the moment. While I understand it, it nevertheless is a preventible and chargeable accident and normally results in disciplinary action.

Back in the early years of the Counterdrug Operations, local law enforcement agencies developed a strong relationship with the military and often worked together operationally and for training. Going back to around 1990, the Scout-Sniper School was indeed opened up for local law enforcment officers with a highly modified curriculum. I sent several members of my own SWAT guys to Camp Pendleton for a one-week course dealing with long range marksmanship put on by the Marines of the school there. Upon graduation, they were skilled riflemen and "snipers", but certainly not in the military model. They could shoot accurately at long range and short, but didn't get all the field craft or forward observation training that the military folks receive. Still, all in all, a great course for local cops. If he did the course successfully, he was in the sixtieth percentile as about forty percent failed the course and were sent home.

As for the State Military Reserve (prejoratively pronounced "SMURR"). They are a California asset and are not federally recognized. Their mission is to replace the California Army National Guard to protect California if the Guard is federalized. They are not paid and have to pay for all of their own equipment unless they are mobilized. Many, if not most, are retired members of the Guard who remained committed to the mission of the Guard and had reached mandatory retirement age. Rank is conferred by the State and frankly, only given lip service by the National Guardsmen and active duty folks. Mr. Wagner says that he is assigned to the Provost Marshal's Office of the 40th Infantry Division. Probably true, but he essentially hasn't any real world mission unless the 40th ID is federalized and deployed outside of California as it was in WWII.

The fact that Mr. Wagner was a Costa Mesa officer speaks to the character of his military service as well. He simply would not have been appointed unless he had been given an honorable discharge from his short time in the Army. Personally I wouldn't post my DD-214 on the web either as it contains a lot of personal information including home of record and social security number. Obviously a DD-214 is more persuasive than a discharge certificate, but it is just too private and sensitive to post on-line.

As I opened this, I mentioned that I don't know much about Mr. Wagner or his skills. The little that I do know about doesn't particularly impress me, but at least that part seems to be legitimate, albeit somewhat "polished". But then again, what do I know? My martial art sucks.