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  1. raylawley is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2008 7:03am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Regardless of whether or not he "padded" his resume (he did) none of this qualifies him to teach MAs.
    Actually, I believe he was teaching MAs related to JKD and Kali before he was a police officer, and possibly even before he was involved with the military.

    According to his bio page, he studied karate under Kiyoshi Yamazaki until 1977 (achieving a green-belt level), then moved on between several different places for about a year, until he went on some sort of training camp involving Dan Inosanto, with whom he apparently trained for a couple years before joining the army in 1980.

    This page contains the details of his honourable discharge from the military:

    http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/bioaddusarmy.html

    When he got back from the army, he says he trained for a few years with Ted Lucaylucay in JKD.

    Then he began teaching a system called "Modern Fighting Methods" in 1985. All of this was before he became a police officer.

    Edit: Okay, so I've read this entire thread twice now, and I still fail to see any true fraud in any of this. His updated website seems to answer most questions and also appears to go to great lengths to back up most of it.

    Admittedly, his ads and some parts of the articles make me cringe, but I think there's a big difference between advertising exaggeration / cheesiness and fraud.

    Like I said before, I'm not impartial because I have had experience with his system. So if I've got a bad case of rose-tinted glasses and am missing some glaring fault or discrepancy with what's written in his bio, then please point out my stupidity.
    Last edited by raylawley; 12/23/2008 7:24am at . Reason: Reducing wall of text with some italics for aesthetic purposes :)
  2. It is Fake is offline
    It is Fake's Avatar

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2008 9:31am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Songshan
    Fake, you know nothing about me. Until you have been through police training, graduated and patrolled the streets come back, post and see if "street experience" means anything to you.
    I know and the fact you are letting "the street" confirm something about a person who has exaggerated his claims indicates you don't know anything about this website.

    I apologize for the poorly worded phrases indicting your entire being. I meant strictly martially.

    Quote Originally Posted by raylawley

    Admittedly, his ads and some parts of the articles make me cringe, but I think there's a big difference between advertising exaggeration / cheesiness and fraud.

    Like I said before, I'm not impartial because I have had experience with his system. So if I've got a bad case of rose-tinted glasses and am missing some glaring fault or discrepancy with what's written in his bio, then please point out my stupidity.[/I]
    No ones calling you stupid. Also please point out where someone called him a fraud. You are one of the few that hasn't flipped out.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 12/23/2008 9:33am at .
  3. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2008 11:18am

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Having now seen Wagner's honorable discharge PDF, It appears that he was honorably discharged from the Army.
  4. It is Fake is offline
    It is Fake's Avatar

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2008 11:21am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, I'm glad he is actually releasing things it can only help.
  5. beringc is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2008 12:22pm


     Style: Jujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just an FYI-

    Most States and the Fed LE agencies only require an 80 hour class to be "certified" as a defensive tactics instructor. Unfortumately this is the only requirement to teach to both recruits and active officers.

    So Wagner can easily be able to teach DT to multiple agencies with only this basic certification.

    Some of these two week wonders leak on to the scene and by virtue of their certificate begin to teach. They forget many of the techniques and thats how we get the shitty training that some here have alluded too.

    Some agencies are strapped for cash and never train beyond entry level instruction in their basic academy. The other issue is most cops prefer guns over rolling around,
  6. Songshan is offline

    Featherweight

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    Houston, Texas
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    Posted On:
    12/23/2008 12:37pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Shaolin Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Christmas Spirit
    Can you link me please ?

    Jim Wagners bio
  7. Songshan is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2008 12:58pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Shaolin Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by raylawley
    Actually, I believe he was teaching MAs related to JKD and Kali before he was a police officer, and possibly even before he was involved with the military.

    According to his bio page, he studied karate under Kiyoshi Yamazaki until 1977 (achieving a green-belt level), then moved on between several different places for about a year, until he went on some sort of training camp involving Dan Inosanto, with whom he apparently trained for a couple years before joining the army in 1980.

    This page contains the details of his honourable discharge from the military:

    http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/bioaddusarmy.html

    When he got back from the army, he says he trained for a few years with Ted Lucaylucay in JKD.

    Then he began teaching a system called "Modern Fighting Methods" in 1985. All of this was before he became a police officer.

    Edit: Okay, so I've read this entire thread twice now, and I still fail to see any true fraud in any of this. His updated website seems to answer most questions and also appears to go to great lengths to back up most of it.

    Admittedly, his ads and some parts of the articles make me cringe, but I think there's a big difference between advertising exaggeration / cheesiness and fraud.

    Like I said before, I'm not impartial because I have had experience with his system. So if I've got a bad case of rose-tinted glasses and am missing some glaring fault or discrepancy with what's written in his bio, then please point out my stupidity.
    Ok, so can you provide us with any kind of insight in regards to his system? Was it effective? Did he know what he was talking about? What did you think of it?

    I guess in a nutshell as an officer you can rack up lots of certifications and titles. In a business mind for marketing purposes it can appear Jim Wagner's creds are exaggerated. How is this different than the MA instructor who opens a school, hangs trophies and medals all over the place and says he won all these in various tournaments? Most of these local area tournaments are not officially recorded anywhere (unless is like a TKD WTF event) and even the instructor's creds are not exactly verifiable? You are basically taking the instructor's word and you hope he is telling the truth when it comes to his lineage.

    Again I am not a super Jim Wagner advocate where what he is teaching/saying is gold. I am just saying based on his MA experiences and Law Enforcement training/experience he can teach civilians and LEOs.
  8. raylawley is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/24/2008 4:10am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    You are one of the few that hasn't flipped out.
    Flipping out doesn't suit me :P

    Fair enough, he hasn't been called a fraud per se. But the general consensus seems to be that the forum is in agreement with Hochheim, in that he is lying about his experience and does not have the required knowledge to effectively teach MA. Which I would probably disagree with, from my own limited experience through Matt and what he has on his website (which I admit I haven't investigated much).

    Quote Originally Posted by Songshan
    Ok, so can you provide us with any kind of insight in regards to his system? Was it effective? Did he know what he was talking about? What did you think of it?
    I think I might have mentioned earlier, though I may not have made it very clear (I tend to post at ungodly hours) that I don't have direct experience with Jim himself trainingwise but rather with his system under Matt Jones, who is the Wagner RBSD main guy for Australia and my instructor in BJJ as well.

    From my experience it's been awesome training, simple and effective and very much alive; and Matt structures it so that it ties in very well with BJJ and the standup / clinch classes. But not having trained with Jim himself, it could be argued that that's not a valid assessment of the system itself.

    Some links to specific subjects, if they haven't been posted already. Just to have them all condensed in one spot:

    Basic bio: http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/aboutjimwagner.html


    Regarding JKD experience prior to military / police affiliation: http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/bioaddjkd.html


    Regarding his time in the military: http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/bioaddusarmy.html


    His system between the military and time as a police officer: http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/bioadd1980s.html


    Regarding experiences as a Corrections Officer: http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/bioaddcmpdjail.html


    Police academy: http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/bioaddpoliceacad.html


    Regarding time as a Police officer: http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/bioaddcmpdofficer.html


    Regarding tactical training: http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/bioaddhss.html


    Regarding SWAT experience: http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/bioaddswat.html


    Regarding Air Force; Civil Air Patrol: http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/addbiocap.html


    Regarding training w/ Marine Corps: http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/addbiousmc.html


    Regarding experience w/ Sherriff's Department: http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/addbioocsd.html


    Experiences as an Air Marshall: http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/addbiofam.html



    Training other forces: http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/bioaddspecops.html


    Regarding Military Reserve Experience: http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/bioaddcsmr.html
  9. datdamnmachine is offline
    datdamnmachine's Avatar

    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

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    Washington State
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    Posted On:
    12/24/2008 10:01am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Songshan

    I guess in a nutshell as an officer you can rack up lots of certifications and titles. In a business mind for marketing purposes it can appear Jim Wagner's creds are exaggerated. How is this different than the MA instructor who opens a school, hangs trophies and medals all over the place and says he won all these in various tournaments? Most of these local area tournaments are not officially recorded anywhere (unless is like a TKD WTF event) and even the instructor's creds are not exactly verifiable? You are basically taking the instructor's word and you hope he is telling the truth when it comes to his lineage.
    Simple, ask and research. You can ask who they trained under and the time period. You can then find that instructor and ask them, you can also find other students. If things match up, they match up, if they don't, they don't. You really, DON'T just have to take the instructor's word for anything. That's usually for these off the wall martial arts and instructors who learned from some guy on a mountain in Asia somewhere. That's the beauty of many of the combat oriented martial arts. It's usually not too difficult to find out what you are looking for. Because of the amount of work these guys have to put into those systems to be effective, they tend to have no problem weeding out bullshitters who may be using their good name to get over on people.

    As for tournament work, that can be a little tricky, but not so much really in this day and age of the Interwebz. If there was a tournament, someone probably knows about it, someone other than the instructor attended, someone had to put it on. A little let work can get you a lot of information. Also, unless the instructor made the medals and trophies himself/herself, then it will say on them what they are for. If you see a lot of medals for musical kata, then you probably know what you are getting yourself into.
  10. Jeff C. is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/25/2008 11:15am


     Style: Ju-Jitsu/BJJ/Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The Honorable Discharge certificate on his website is not worth the paper it is written on. That does not mean it is not legitimate - it means that practically NOBODY will accept those certificates as proof of an honorable discharge (they are too easy to steal, too easy to duplicate - not a controlled item). Only a DD 214 is accepted. I don't think we have seen his 214 yet.

    Jeff Cook

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