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  1. datdamnmachine is offline
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    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

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    Posted On:
    12/22/2008 2:27pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Songshan
    ok....if you say so




    huh? Pictures are pictures....they dont expose tactics.



    ok...he still had to have completed basic police training, spent time on the streets, and goto SWAT school, train with team.....even to push papers on the SWAT team.



    What's wrong with the regular army? If Wagner had anything less than a honorable discharge law enforcement would't touch him. I say he is qualified to teach law enforcement and civilians.



    Dont know anything about that but if it wasnt for Dan I's affiliation with Bruce Lee he probably would be butchered on the Bullshido forums. LOL.
    First hand info about the military's self defense training...garbage.

    Second hand info from my instructor who was a special agent with the DoJ in Cali and who taught the self defense stuff for them and still does work with the Police...not too good either in the self defense aspect.

    That is because the Police mostly deal with restraining techniques and having backup to assist. Most of their training revolves around that.

    As for the military, they deal mostly with the old concept of "there is the enemy, shot the enemy". If the enemy got close enough to perform hand in hand, that is were you bayonets and rifle become your weapon. If after all that, then the craptacular H2H came into play. And it was indeed craptacular. Recently, they have gotten better with the H2H in the military. As for the police, I'll let the guys with the LEO tags tell that tale.
  2. beringc is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/22/2008 3:54pm


     Style: Jujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by datdamnmachine
    As for the police, I'll let the guys with the LEO tags tell that tale.
    I've checked out this thread and all the info about Wagner. I remember when he was on the cover of BB and there were some gun takeaways in the article. I remember thinking that they were not all that exotic. They were straight out of the Fed curriculum.

    There are only so many schools of thought on LE training. The FBI is standardized and represents a large portion of most LE dept training. There are a few other big names here in CA, like Bob Koga and Cameron that have trained lots of LE guys. None of the stuff is too exotic. Just basic stuff. So what Wagner is doing, besides presenting his credentials in a way that may be unethical, is teaching basic stuff. LAPD broke some new ground (because of the Torrance academy and Rorions marketing skill).

    There are many more advanced techniques out there for subduing someone on the street. Cops are not paid to be MMA fighters. If I can stop your behavior and take you to jail without getting dirty, that saves me some laundry. You have to remember that LE like the military employs lots of different people from all cuts of society. Thats why you have some guys that are radiomen and some that are SF, or clerks and SRT members.

    A lot of LE guys put many hours in the gym or dojo to try and make it to retirement. It is not that the dept training is sub-par, but the skills are perishable. For the posters that think LE or military training is crap, I would counter that you half to build a foundation before the rest of the house. Entry level training may not be the same as a Gracie workout, but we would kill 2/3 of the applicants, then who would show when you dial 911. Lots of cops train and train hard, because lots of criminals train and train hard. We also have unique opportunuies to test our technique. Thats what I enjoy.
  3. Songshan is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    12/22/2008 10:51pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Shaolin Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2
    Dear Songshan,

    Please stop talking out your ass.

    Love,
    1.2

    .......... :XXbirdman
    Last edited by Songshan; 12/22/2008 11:47pm at .
  4. Songshan is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/22/2008 11:43pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Shaolin Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn
    you sighted CRASHING YOUR GODDAMN CAR as something that just happens to people. It isn't. The fact that you would pick something that severe as an example and hold it up as commonplace says alot about the level of people you think are in law enforcement. Wait....didn't you say you were in law enforcement? I guess its first hand knowledge then.




    I am assuming nothing. During my time in ROTC (I'll be back, once I get my grades back up), It was impressed upon me how bad what the army taught was in comparison to BJJ. This sentiment came up again when I was talking to a marine combatives instructor at one of my old instructors MMA events. It came up because I expressed interest in becoming a combatives instructor once I join the military.

    As for law enforcement not allowing anyone to "sit in", my father is a paramedic that teaches them their first aid. He has delusions of granduer, so he asked to participate in their training. They said yes. He brought me along because back then he thought it would be fun for me (I was like 13). It was basically a bad krotty class, with the addition of air knees and elbows to go along with the kicking and punching. Even what I see in these shows that follow cadets through "police boot camp" or whatever and they show the H2H training, its rudimentary boxing AT BEST. Police rely on weapons, numbers, and intimidation to subdue people, not t3h d34dly fighting skills (I know, been on the wrong end a few times, seeing a pistol drawn is usually enough to get me to cooperate).

    Let me pose this question to you; If police officers and military personel are so deadly and well trained in H2H, why is this board (and martial arts schools around the country) littered with LEOs and military men and women training outside of their parent agencies?
    Beorn, people "crash" cars everyday. That's a fact. Even police officers have accidents. Some are severe others are just mishaps. Just because an officer has an accident doesn't mean he is a bad officer. Yes, I am an officer and it is first hand knowledge. The fact you mention ROTC and grades indicates to me you haven't finished school. Go out experience the real world.

    I am not sure where exactly this class you observed took place but every agency teaches different things depending on which state your in too. Some agency's teach 0 defensive tactics others teach less then stellar and a few teach excellent defensive tactics. Once you graduate from the academy it is up to you to maintain your skills. Some do many do not. That is my point. Wagner seems to have and started his own business. So be it.

    In answer to your last question, because some law enforcement agencies lack the funds to have their officers trained. To be even more honest, some are lazy or just not interested in that aspect.
  5. Songshan is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2008 12:00am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Shaolin Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    Hey, stop stealing my lines.

    "He spent time on the street" does not qualify his lack of verifiable training credentials..
    To most of you it probably doesn't. But given experience doesn't mean anything here so be it. I guess if Wagner had a long list of certifcations with someone who could verify them but had 0 experience in the field then it would be no problems or questions asked so long as his creds were verified. :BangHead:
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/23/2008 12:50am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Songshan
    To most of you it probably doesn't. But given experience doesn't mean anything here so be it. I guess if Wagner had a long list of certifcations with someone who could verify them but had 0 experience in the field then it would be no problems or questions asked so long as his creds were verified. :BangHead:
    Yes, you are right. The fact you trust that "the street" is qualification says a ton about you. The street isn't credible for anyone. Sorry, if that is the case then every ninja, chunner, kung fuer, chi fairy etc etc etc is legit.
    Pencil pushing is not the street. Radio operator is not the street.

    If your quals are legit (OMEGA or Asia) and you say "the street" it adds to your credibility. You have weird **** and you say "the street" it subtracts.
  7. Beorn is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2008 1:18am


     Style: TKD, judo, MT noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Songshan
    I am not sure where exactly this class you observed took place but every agency teaches different things depending on which state your in too. Some agency's teach 0 defensive tactics others teach less then stellar and a few teach excellent defensive tactics. Once you graduate from the academy it is up to you to maintain your skills. Some do many do not. That is my point. Wagner seems to have and started his own business. So be it.
    That's my point. He has never really held down a position long enough to have "street cred" so all we can go on is what would have been taught to him in various academies. We know that what the army:qtank: would have taught him is worthless. I cannot speak to how air marshals train. That leaves his time as a police officer. The training I saw afforded to cops was laughable. As there are no standards for what is taught, He could have been taught the exact same thing, or nothing even, yet these are the credentials he is relying on to say he is a qualified instructor. Regardless of whether or not he "padded" his resume (he did) none of this qualifies him to teach MAs.
  8. Songshan is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2008 4:12am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Shaolin Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    Yes, you are right. The fact you trust that "the street" is qualification says a ton about you. The street isn't credible for anyone. Sorry, if that is the case then every ninja, chunner, kung fuer, chi fairy etc etc etc is legit.
    Pencil pushing is not the street. Radio operator is not the street.

    If your quals are legit (OMEGA or Asia) and you say "the street" it adds to your credibility. You have weird **** and you say "the street" it subtracts.
    Fake, you know nothing about me. Until you have been through police training, graduated and patrolled the streets come back, post and see if "street experience" means anything to you.
  9. Songshan is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2008 4:18am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Shaolin Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn
    That's my point. He has never really held down a position long enough to have "street cred" so all we can go on is what would have been taught to him in various academies. We know that what the army:qtank: would have taught him is worthless. I cannot speak to how air marshals train. That leaves his time as a police officer. The training I saw afforded to cops was laughable. As there are no standards for what is taught, He could have been taught the exact same thing, or nothing even, yet these are the credentials he is relying on to say he is a qualified instructor. Regardless of whether or not he "padded" his resume (he did) none of this qualifies him to teach MAs.
    I looked at his bio on his website "about Jim Wagner" section. I scrolled down to his police service record and read it. The information he has released and posted speaks for itself. It is in detail and gives dates, names and job duties. Good luck with trying to pick that stuff apart.
  10. BackFistMonkey is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/23/2008 4:26am

    supporting member
     Style: Recovery-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Songshan
    I looked at his bio on his website "about Jim Wagner" section. I scrolled down to his police service record and read it. The information he has released and posted speaks for itself. It is in detail and gives dates, names and job duties. Good luck with trying to pick that stuff apart.
    Can you link me please ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhi108 View Post
    Nuke a unborn gay whale for Christ.
    I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994
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